To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

The bias on this thread is something else.

The attack is of course grotesque and condemned before anyone accuses me, as they have others of being a terrorist sympathiser and to fuck off.

2 million people trapped and awaiting slaughter. But according to some their lives are worth less.. mere casualties of war.. tough shit they votes hamas (14 years ago) and by extension, should expect no less.

Shame on you.

Israel isn't to blame for Egypt not welcoming Palestinians in. Actually, Palestinians are subject to a kind of Arab apartheid (which is why I always scoff at some of the Amnesty rhetoric).

They are friendly in some ways and not in others. As people say, Hamas are a risk to citizens. In 1978 there was the assassination of Egyptian Culture Minister Youssef el-Sebai, allegedly by Palestinian extremists. Rights were removed after that of citizenship. I think Palestinians are legally denied citizenship in a lot of places. Denied rights like owning businesses etc. I think (not an expert on this) they have been mass expelled from numerous places (at least half a million from Kuwait at one point). So it's not as friendly as you'd assume.

I feel terrible for the Gazans, but it's been a mess. There is a lot of fighting and bombing, and much of the energy and of course the huge amount of aid delivered to Gaza goes into efforts to destroy Israel rather than look after people, but it wasn’t supposed to happen that way.

In 2005 when Israel forcibly removed around 7,000 Israeli citizens from Gaza in order to establish an autonomous “Juden Frei” Palestinian enclave that was to be ultimately connected to the West Bank. The Israelis who had lived there had established a really awesome greenhouse industry for food production and exports, and had built great housing, schools and hospitals which were left almost entirely intact when they were dragged unwillingly back to Israel.

The plan for Gaza was to create was to create a prosperous, free trading zone in the middle east that had a lot of awesome infrastructure. There were plans for a duty free cruise port, an international airport and seaside resorts that would have rivaled any in the Middle East. Fair and democratic elections were scheduled for a few months following the Israeli withdrawal.

But it went to shit.

Almost immediately after withdrawal, Hamas fired up mobs to ransack the abandoned Israeli settlements, smashing the greenhouses, burning the homes and desecrating the synagogues. At the same time they started firing rockets into Israel which were homemade and did little damage but definitely started things off on a bad foot.

Hamas defeated the PA in the election, and have basically not held an election ever again since. So they kind of showed up, fucked everything royally up and then refused to hold more elections so they could be removed. So there's now no democracy in Gaza.

From the outset Hamas has made clear that it has only one goal - the total elimination of Israel and the vast majority of its Jewish inhabitants. To that end it has used humanitarian aid and everything at their disposal to work towards that. So for example they were given concrete to rebuild homes but then instead used it to build tunnels under Israeli and Egyptian territory for nefarious purposes and to make bunkers for rockets!

Money that was supposed to go to hospitals, schools and housing for the masses has instead gone to the Hamas elite and any google of Gaza city will show these luxurious shopping malls, hotels and homes partially hidden in among the horrid slums where the majority of people live.

This is all why I get so damn annoyed at the idea Israel is to blame for the Gazans being so destitute. Hamas destroyed the shit out of everything, used all the aid money to live in luxury or act to destroy Israel and they have put them Gazans in this position.

It's only because of the UN and other aid agencies that there are ANY schools, medical facilities or even basic necessities for the masses because what monies Hamas doesn’t siphon off to build there and smuggle weapons they use to enrich the leaders and it's even believed it is sent to safe havens abroad!

Meanwhile, they seem to have convinced large portions of the British left that Israel is the bad guy here and they run around glorifying suicide bombers, paying people salaries and bonuses for murder and chanting antisemitic bollocks while they give toddlers guns.

So life is pretty bad for the Gazans, but I am not convinced Egypt as a government are not able to see what's really going on and that offering "Asylum" is sadly probably going to result in being exploited. it's tragic for the innocents.

And you need democracy more than democracy needs you.

@LemonyTicket I don't disagree with much of what you say.

Your earlier assertion that the Palestinians are entitled to no land, they don't own it, were never given it, Israel won it, is plainly wrong.

The West Bank and East Jerusalem is recognised as theirs, and the continued bulldozing of Palestinian homes to make way for Israeli settlements has been condemned by the UN.

Yet still they continue, and Israel, 3 times has elected a leader hell bent on building more.

The problem is, you're making the assumption that Hamas would be prepared to compromise, when all the evidence shows that nothing other than the eradication of Israel is sufficient for them.

I’m still working my way through the thread but coming to the top quickly to say thank you to @LemonyTicket for your informative posts. It’s helped so much with my understanding of the situation.

I never said that.

What I said was Palestine was never a country. It never belonged to them. It could not be "stolen" because it didn't belong to them to steal.

They were residing on the land. So were Jews.

Some were expelled or fled the land on which they were residing. So were Jews.

At the time the land "belonged", by the system ALL land on earth belonged, to the people who'd conquered it. Like it or not that's how almost every bit of land was divided up. For thousands of years it was under colonial control.

Both parties wanted to rule the land.

The British decided they should share it.

Jews agreed.

Arabs didn't

There was a war.

Arabs lost.

That really is the crux of it. Likewise almost every country you can think of is ruled by whoever won a war.

For some reason people just hold Israel up to this very bizarre double standard.

Palestinians need to accept sharing, or, contune trying to obliterate Israel. If they Continue choosing the latter, Israel can't really be their best pals.

@LemonyTicket

I accept your explanation (can't find the bloody thing now).

The "sharing" idea evaporated 20 years ago, and 650,000 Israelis now live on Palestinian land.

I get the impression that Hamas are more of an ISIS style religious death cult than a traditional type of independence movement. They're happy to die for their cause, and they are happy for both Palestinian and Israeli civilians to die for their cause.

This article in an Israeli newspaper is a balanced view (IMO) of what may happen next.

www.timesofisrael.com/by-abducting-over-100-people-into-gaza-hamas-has-put-netanyahu-in-a-political-bind/

@ Limony
Almost immediately after withdrawal, Hamas fired up mobs to ransack the abandoned Israeli settlements, smashing the greenhouses, burning the homes and desecrating the synagogues.

You have ommitted to mention that at least half of the greenhouses were destroyed by the settlers themselve who objected to their displacement. also the majority of synagogues were demolished by the Israelis.

"The evacuation of the settlers was completed by August 22, after which demolition crews razed 2,800 houses, community buildings and 26 synagogues.[41] Two synagogues, whose construction allowed for them to be taken apart and reassembled, were dismantled and rebuilt in Israel. The demolition of the homes was completed on September 1, while the Shirat HaYam hotel was demolished later"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

So most synagogues were dismantled by the withdrawing Israelis and a few remained. The cynic in me thinks they were deliberately left so as to provoke their desecration thus allowing Israel to move themselves a little further up on the moral high ground. Yes, some Gazans did go onto looting the pipework and other valuables in the greenhouses, the PA were weak, corrupt and could not stop them. but most greenhouses were left in tact.

The picture you painted of the Settlers handing over a fully working garden is innacurate. A lot of them apparently trashed the place before they left.

‘2 million people trapped and awaiting slaughter. ‘

This. The Israeli authorities seem to think they have the moral high ground. They really don’t. 100s have already died, most of them innocent civilians.
Why add to the death toll? How is letting Palestinian children starve, or be buried in rubble, or die from injuries because there’s no power in the hospitals, or just be blown to bits going to solve anything?

"It could not be "stolen" because it didn't belong to them to steal."

It's stealing now, no?

Your previous post said the reason was not setting a precedent to let Palestinians into Egypt because of Israel's actions,

In this post you are saying something completely different. And all three points say the reason is, basically, that allowing Palestinians into the country will cause problems for Egypt. Which, looking at the recent history of Lebanon seems certain to be the case.

It's about revenge. Unfortunately killing a load of kids won't bring anyone back, or help in the long term. It seems it's more the right wing that want to flatten Gaza, though, while politicians struggle with how to deal with the hostage situation and Hamas.

It could not be "stolen" because it didn't belong to them to steal.

That logic could be applied to many 'third world' populations. Their ownership of the land isn't internationally recognised, so it's fine for wealthy and powerful incomers to take it over. The same logic was used in Africa.

Except their ownership is internationally recognised.

United Nations 2016

press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

United Nations Sept 2023

press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm

LemonyTicket

Thank you. That’s helpful. I’m trying to get my head around it all. I’m hoping that this doesn’t set the peace process back too far but I suspect it might. Very hard to let go of such atrocities. Such an awful situation 😞

‘It's about revenge. Unfortunately killing a load of kids won't bring anyone back, or help in the long term.’

no, it won’t. It’ll only politicise even more Palestinians, recruit more terrorists into Hamas, and put the region at risk of escalation of violence and involvement of other Arab nations if the Israelis start to massacre the people in Gaza.

Well yes, there are multiple reasons. I gave a list of reasons why opening the border is problematic for Egypt and why there hasn’t been freedom of movement before this point. I also mentioned that no country that supports the rights of Palestinians is going to do what Israel hopes will happen right now because it sets a precedent - Israel currently views Palestinians as human animals and wants them gone by any means (as stated by the Israeli war minister this afternoon), there is always going to be a strong push back against that.

You're confused. The unattributed quote was referring to the land before it was divided into separate states.

So your post talking about the current position is neither here nor there.

Israeli War Minister latest update:
”I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no fuel, no food, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.”

Tragically, and for all the reasons LemonyTicket's so brilliantly articulated, there was always a likelihood of this happening

It doesn't make it right or the inevitable loss of life any less dreadful; it doesn't even provide an answer, but there really was only so long that Israel - for all its government's many faults - would tolerate attacks from a regime who quite openly say they want them all dead

You're excusing the rape murder and torture of young girls, elderly people with dementia, babies and children with their mothers, young people attending a music festival. Hundreds and hundreds of them slaughtered in one day. What the fuck

Whilst I can understand how emotions are at an all time high now @BlurredEdges , the same things have been happening to Palestinian women, kids and babies for decades.

It isn't reported on in remotely the same way and you know this.

For clarity, I am appalled at what has happened to innocent Israelis'. There is no excuse.

Equally, there is no excuse for the suffering, rape and brutality of Palestinian women and kids. I hope you agree. Absolutely, all brutality is inexcusable.

‘We are fighting human animals ‘

animals is the word you use to try to de-humanise the people, civilian men, women, children that you’re about to slaughter.

The far right want Gaza destroyed, even at the risk of killing the Israelis who’ve been kidnapped and are probably in the area.

@quiteoldad

I haven't neglected to mention anything. I have given an accurate summary of what happened and you have given a very misleading version.

The Disengagement Agreement signed by Sharon and stated very clearly that towns and villages would be dismantled as part of the agreement. So it was planned HOUSES would be broken down and relocated. The property of the settlers would be retained where possible.

I quote from 2i of the disengagement agreement

Israel will evacuate the Gaza Strip, including all existing Israeli towns and villages, and will redeploy outside the Strip

And section 7

Israel will strive to leave the immovable property relating to Israeli towns and villages intact. The transfer of Israeli economic activity to Palestinians carries with it the potential for a significant improvement in the Palestinian economy. Israel proposes that an international body be established (along the lines of the AHLC), with the agreement of the United States and Israel, which shall take possession from Israel of property which remains, and which will estimate the value of all such assets. Israel reserves the right to request that the economic value of the assets left in the evacuated areas be taken into consideration

It was always the agreement that Israel would dismantle and remove it's rightful property, they did not run around "trashing" things - they were 22 planned crews that dismantled what they could - you have mischaracterised this completely!

All public buildings (schools, libraries, community centres, office buildings) as well as industrial buildings, factories, and greenhouses which could not be taken apart were left intact

That is factual and quoted from Wikipedia. Exactly as I said. It was entirely Hamas' choice to put together a mob to smash it all to bits almost immediately!Yes, some people were devastated and dragged forcibly and kicking and screaming from their homes. It was where they had lived for forty years. It was where their dead were buried and not everyone agreed with disengagement but they did not trash the place!.Synagogues were originally included in this, for obvious reasons, but some remained and I quote from Wikipedia below:

Originally, the Israeli cabinet had planned to destroy synagogues in the settlement, but the government caved in to pressure from religious Jewish organizations and reversed its decision.[26][27] However, most of the synagogues were destroyed by Palestinian mobs immediately after the evacuation. Abu Abir, a member of the Popular Resistance Committees terrorist organization, commented that "The looting and burning of the synagogues was a great joy...It was in an unplanned expression of happiness that these synagogues were destroyed." Later, in 2007, it was reported that "The ruins of two large synagogues in Gush Katif, the evacuated Jewish communities of the Gaza Strip, have been transformed into a military base used by Palestinian groups to fire rockets at Israeli cities and train for attacks against the Jewish state, according to a senior terror leader in Gaza

Hamas had every option to use the homes remaining, as well as all the public buildings and greenhouses but they chose to smash them all up. Which is fairly characteristic of Hamas. The account I gave was entirely accurate :)