To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

And I am sorry for you and everyone who this is affecting so close to home. It’s easy for people like me to post on threads like these, but when you have a direct link, then it must be heartbreaking and terrifying.

I have messaged all my Jewish friends today. I am Muslim but am lucky enough to have friends from all over and I like to think we understand and support each other at these times.

I feel most for friends with kids in the Israeli army right now. I could cry for them. Parents worry about their kids, whatever their nationality.

As you appear to be the one convinced there's some grand conspiracy which escapes the rest of us.

@Truthisbetterthanlies not a conspiracy theorist. It's just a sad fact that war always benefits someone, somewhere, whilst causing untold misery to countless others.
I think like a lot of other people, I was just so shocked at the Israeli army and secret services being caught so unawares and at the sheer scale of the events. I am not in any way sticking up for the terrorists and their actions, which were absolutely despicable.

TBH it goes back way way before that to ancient Babylonia, through the Ottoman Empire to the present day Israel.

Jews have been an oppressed group in nearly every empire that has come across them. They came from a region which historically was extremely important to access the Mediterranean from the East so it was strategically an important area to either hold or conquer.

From these beginnings stories about Jews became rather embedded. Christian’s labelled them “Christ killers” to separate Christianity from Judaism which in turn enabled Christendom (blame Paul and Constantine).

Jews have been persecuted throughout time Empire after Empire from Babylon to the Nazis. This is why Israel was formed, a safe haven from millennia of displacement, slavery and genocide.

Of course the question remains why choose that area? Well that was the birthplace of Judaism - their promised land in their religion. It had to go somewhere. This was the logical place.

Yes someone was always going to be unhappy. Could it have been managed better - yes. Can we stand back and see Jews persecuted again, no! Each and every country/empire who has ever been involved in Jewish Persecution has a responsibility to make sure it never happens again.

@Dymaxion you appear to be interested in a discussion about intelligence on terrorist groups.

If so, here is a thread on it:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/4915775-i-do-not-believe-intelligence-forces-knew-nothing

I've posted some very relevant factors behind intelligence that may help you regarding what happened in Israel. I know people who were involved in intelligence services in Northern Ireland and am quite well read on the subject.

It isn't. And your closest Israeli friend sounds a bit of a wanker, if you don't mind my saying. But they're hardly an authoritative source on anything.

The only way that Israel could be regarded as 'blockading' Gaza is if you're seriously suggesting that Israel controls Egypt and tells it how to manage its own sovereign borders.

Which is surely a conspiracy theory too far even for the most mad conspiracy theorist!

Thank you. That means a lot to me and the other Jewish posters/readers on this thread.

Thank you to @DownNative for some interesting perspectives.

Entire blocks in Gaza have now been flattened. Most of the city of Beit Hanoun (60K population) is now rubble and fire.

There are many stories now of men, women, and children who are burning to death, having limbs blown off, being filled with shrapnel from explosives, entire families dying. Yet few if any of those stories or pictures will ever be circulated as those lives do not matter to most.

To those who have family and friends in Palestine, my heart goes out to you. I am sure you are getting so much hate online and being told your families deserve a painful and horrible death by many, but for those of us who do not determine worth or value by passport or ethnicity or nationality please know there are people who are also devastated and horrified by the trauma and atrocities the men, women, and children in Palestine also experience.

Very heartwarming.

And I particularly appreciated Zelenskyy's tweet on this:

Volodymyr Zelenskyy / Володимир Зеленський on X: "I spoke with @Netanyahu to affirm Ukraine’s solidarity with Israel, which suffers from a brazen large-scale attack, and to express condolences for the multiple victims. The Prime Minister informed me of the current situation and the actions of Israel’s Defense Forces and law…" / X (twitter.com)

"I spoke with @ Netanyahu to affirm Ukraine’s solidarity with Israel, which suffers from a brazen large-scale attack, and to express condolences for the multiple victims.

The Prime Minister informed me of the current situation and the actions of Israel’s Defense Forces and law enforcement to repel the attack.

I noted the cooperation between the Israeli police and Ukrainian diplomats with regard to the safety and protection of Ukrainian citizens in Israel.

We also discussed the attack’s ramifications for the security situation in the region and beyond."

And this tweet from Zelenskyy:

Volodymyr Zelenskyy / Володимир Зеленський on X: "Today, the entire world saw horrifying videos from Israel. Terrorists humiliate women and men, detain even the elderly, and show no mercy. In the face of such a terrorist strike, everyone who values life must stand in solidarity. We in Ukraine have a special feeling about… t.co/AnBgVO2X0J" / X (twitter.com)

"Today, the entire world saw horrifying videos from Israel. Terrorists humiliate women and men, detain even the elderly, and show no mercy.

In the face of such a terrorist strike, everyone who values life must stand in solidarity.

We in Ukraine have a special feeling about what has happened. Thousands of rockets in the Israeli sky... People killed just on the streets... Civilian cars shot through... Detainees being humiliated…

Our position is crystal clear: anyone who causes terror and death anywhere on the planet must be held accountable.

Today’s terrorist attack on Israel was well-planned, and the entire world knows which sponsors of terrorism could have endorsed and enabled its organization.

Israel has the full right to defend itself against terror. As any other state. And it’s critical that the whole world responds to terror in a unified and principled manner."

Of course they don't 'deserve a painful and horrible death'. No innocent civilian does. Hamas no doubt walked through the likely Israeli responses when they sent their fighters across a border, where - among other things - they executed 260 or so trippy young people at a festival.

Anyone who thinks they are one of the good guys, on the right side of history - if you have previously supported Ukraine, you might like to wonder why you're on the wrong side of history if you're taking the side of the terrorists, when the victims are Jewish??

Just saying.

Hypocrite. Precisely no-one here is saying that people in Gaza "deserve a painful and horrible death" - yet this thread has had numerous posters claiming that Jews in Israel do indeed "deserve a painful and horrible death" - because the posters disapprove of their government.

A significant number of those on the left don’t recognise Israel’s right to exist. They also hold Israeli citizens responsible for the actions of their government in a way that they would never do for citizens of any other state.

And Israel has also walked though the various responses including considering Hamas attacks on citizens in deciding how to treat Palestinians over the last decades. This is a cycle of how badly can two militaries and governments treat each other's citizens.

I didn't say on this thread. Can you link to the posts that claim Jews in Israel deseve a painful and horrible death? I haven't seen that at all.

I am against any militia or government who wants to kill innocent people and who prides themselves on the mistreatment and deaths of innocent womena nd children - which is currently happening on both sides.

Do 600 Israeli lives matter - yes. But no more than 600 Palestinian lives.

I agree. It means a lot and shows the sort of wisdom we need more of. SIL is a liberal Rabbi in the States and she is understandably distraught and knows many people affected.

Similarly, DD made a point of walking into school with her friend whose father is Arab Israeli (but living in the UK). He is scared of how his family’s situation will be understood by peers with strong opinions on either ‘side.’

Israeli’s bombing the hell out of Gaza, and cutting off food, water and power supplies… I wonder how high the death to will be before the American’s step in and say that’s enough now. No-one thinks you actually care about capturing terrorists, just punishing ordinary people.

yet this thread has had numerous posters claiming that Jews in Israel do indeed "deserve a painful and horrible death"

Really? Who's said that?

The IDF and the Israeli intelligence services have been seriously embarrassed, on top of everything else. God knows how they allowed an attack on this scale happen.
They’ll take the cost out on civilians,
unfortunately.
Hamas can’t last much longer hopefully, then perhaps some common sense might be restored.

I didn't say the UN article was defending Hamas, I said it was funny that you were using a UN article to defend Hamas, when Hamas consider the UN to be part of a Jewish plot.

Yes, international law is largely irrelevant to the most powerful nations and might does indeed make right.

Have you not noticed this? Why do you think the likes of America, Britian, China, etc., can act with impunity on the world stage when other nations would be sanctioned or invaded for carrying out similar actions.

You seem to live in a fairyland where you expect Israel to just lie down and give a hostile force complete access to their country, while making no demands of that same hostile force to stop trying to kill them.

If Israel said tomorrow "we're removing all sanctions on Palestinians, you're now free to live across these lands as equals".

What do you think would happen? Do you think Hamas and their many supports would say "oh well that's nice of you, let's live in peace" or do you think they'd go "ALL this land is ours and until Israel is obliterated we will continue to wage Jihad against these Jewish usurpers"

Hint: hamas and their supporters are quite clear on what they'd do, they even wrote it down for you, and it's not the first option.

And you still haven't stated why you think Israel are occupiers of a land that they have either won the right to rule through conquest or have a claim to through historical connections?

@TruckDiver

Nobody. Nobody on their right mind and sober anyway.

It's just inflammatory nonsense.

A life is a life. But not all deaths are equal.

If you are equating death in war versus being raped and then murdered and then having your naked corpse spat on whilst being paraded publicly - well, they're not really the same.

The former is a death in war. The latter is a war crime.

Yes, all the people involved are dead - but if it was your family member, which option would you prefer?

You need to acknowledge that Hamas' door-to-door deliberate massacre of babies, teens, the elderly, families, and their mass rape/torture/hostage taking is NOT the moral equivalent of Israel undertaking a bombing campaign in Gaza (after, I should add, giving residents plenty of notice and telling them to leave the areas about to be bombed, to prevent loss of life).

Pretending that war crimes = legitimate warfare is disingenuous in the extreme.

Ordinary people with an intact sense of morality can very easily see the difference.

You are asking would I rather see my children shot to death in front of me or watch them die slowly with their limbs blown off as they bleed out? Both sound horrific. No, I don't think that watching my family die from burning to death or suffocating in rubble or being blown to bits would in way way be better than watching them be shot and killed as they ran across a field.

In both cases, there is a desire to cause pain and suffering to as many innocent civilians as possible to show your power. Both are retaliating for perceived harms. Both see themselves as responding to the attacks of the other.

x.com/warclandestine/status/1711116534507094467?s=46