To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

‘Israel is not blockading Gaza - it has a border with Egypt.’

it is. The UN says it is. The international
community says it is. Facts say it is. 16 years of it. Coming out with nonsense like there is no blockade isn’t helpful, isn’t true and isn’t going to help resolve anything.
Even my closest Israeli friend who very much is - we’re the chosen people, it’s our land and they’re all murderers - calls it a blockade.
though she believes it needs to be and it’s somehow hoping eventually they’ll crack under the pressure of the miserable living conditions and all go and live in an Arab country somewhere/somehow.

Other locations projecting the Israeli flag onto various landmarks:

Ukraine - Kyiv

Zagreb, Croatia

Uzbekistan - projected on a hotel overlooking the central Amira Temura Square in the capital, Tashkent

Argentina - Buenos Aires’ famous obelisk donned the colors

Azerbaijan - Baku. This is a Muslim majority State.

I profoundly disagree with this- it’s emotive and not reasoned.
The suffering of any child is an abomination. The structural and material experience of a child on the Gaza Strip is however incomparably worse than that of a child growing up in Israel and that is a fact.
Where there is an occupier and an occupied, the occupied suffer more. Where there is apartheid, one group suffers more. This is a fact.
It is not ‘all the same’

Where there is an occupier and an occupied, the occupied suffer more

Gaza is not occupied.

Where there is apartheid, one group suffers more

Agreed. Im Jewish. And a woman. I assume this means I've got equal rights in Gaza? Or Iran? Jordan? Syria? Libya?

I'm entitled by birth to Iraqi citizenship. Can I go there, tell them I'm going to kill all Muslims and get freedom of movement? What else do I get?

Whole area filled with fanatics and zealots, many of them violent. Poor kids having to grow up in that mess. The children on the poorer side suffering infinitely, infinitely more. There is a lot of post traumatic mental illness on the Palestinian side (I know medics who have been there many times).

I think of those James Bond movies where arms dealers fan wars so they can get richer.

@LemonyTicket

Thank you for your insightful posts.

Can I ask one question without wishing to upset anyone.

Exactly why do Arabs hate Jews so much? I had a Persian boyfriend many years ago and I asked him and he couldn’t/wouldn’t even attempt to explain.

Lemony don't be bloody ridiculous.

The West Bank and East Jerusalem are OCCUPIED.

You may continue to deny the Occupied Palestinian Territory all you like.

And the Palestinians right to that land as recognised by the UN.

Your faux-ignorance is galling.

Bear in mind you will get a VERY one sided response to this.

Yes I’m aware of that.

Image attached of the Israeli flag projection in Kyiv, Ukraine.

Brisbane’s Story Bridge was lit up in Israel’s national colours of blue and white on Sunday night.

South Australian landmarks including Parliament House and Adelaide Oval will be lit up on Monday, as will the Melbourne Cricket Ground, National Gallery of Victoria and Old Treasury Building.

Rome, Italy - Kigi Palace – the office of Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni – lit up with the Israeli flag in its center.

EU offices in Brussels were lit up with a huge Israeli flag in the center. Also attached.

Ursula Gertrude von der Leyen, president of the European Commission, wrote on the EU's X account: "Today (yesterday) Hamas terrorists attacked in the heart of Israel, kidnapping and killing hundreds of innocent women and children. Israel has the right to defend itself today and in the days to come. The European Union stands with Israel."

Eiffel Tower in Paris, France also lit up.

France, Germany, Italy, and Spain have increased security around synagogues and Jewish institutions at home as a precaution.

United Nations Security Council (UNSC) condemnation of "heinous terrorist attacks committed by Hamas" was reportedly blocked by.....Russia.

Blockaded yes but not occupied, occupied would mean actual Israelis with guns wandering around Gaza and West Bank. They unilaterally withdrew from Gaza years ago. The accuracy of language here matters, if I’m not actually physically in my neighbours house how can you argue that I am occupying it. If I build a wall around it and police traffic in and out I am blockading it.

I think we can agree the blockade has a devastating affect on normal citizens while understanding why Israelis believe it to be necessary. If Hamas are so popular and completely the will of the people why haven’t they had an election? Same in the West Bank?

Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms
14 Delegations in Favour of Resolution 2334 (2016) as United States Abstains
The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders.
Adopting resolution 2334 (2016) by 14 votes, with the United States abstaining, the Council reiterated its demand that Israel immediately and completely cease all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem. It underlined that it would not recognize any changes to the 4 June 1967 lines, including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the two sides through negotiations.

press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

This thread really shows the utter dominance of Israel the superpower subjugating those less powerful. It’s reflected accurately in this thread, the ‘superiority’, the dominance and the unwillingness to open their eyes.

Excuses and irrelevant counter arguments made to excuse the inexcusable. Excusing Israel’s government and military with ‘well why don’t Hamas do better for their people?’

There is no excuse for Israel’s colonialism and blatant racism.

We can all see right through it. Through all the counter arguments and excuses.

There are Israelis occupying the West Bank. I saw a video where a Palestinian woman was kicked out her house to make way for an American jew who had just arrived. So technically she was renting and the landlord said it was ok but the American said it was a political move to remind the Palestinians that Jews can live there. He said it was a necessary evil.

You're excusing the rape murder and torture of young girls, elderly people with dementia, babies and children with their mothers, young people attending a music festival. Hundreds and hundreds of them slaughtered in one day. What the fuck.

Historically Judaism is the relative minority religion between the dominant religions of Christianity and Islam.

As such there has always been an uncurrent of anti Semitism in both Christianity and Islam. Historically more so with Christianity and frequent polgrams from the Middle Ages through to early 20th century Russia.

This of course culminated in the Holocaust by the Nazis in WW2. After which the western world generally (though there are plenty of exceptions) came to the consensus view that the persecution / prejudice / genocide of Jewish people was unacceptable .

However in the Middle East and across Islam they never had their "Holocaust reflection" moment so anti semitism remains strong.

Also there is a view by many in the region that the West only supports the existence of Israel because they feel guilty about the Holocaust which was a Christian / Western crime and has nothing to do with Islam or the Middle East.

You are clearly well/read and knowledgable.

But do you really not believe that the quality of life for an average Palestinian person (or however you wish to describe their nationality) is not adversely affected by the Israeli government? Is it all down to Hamas/Palestinians themselves? Stuff I have read, and heard from neutral people I respect who have worked in the area, say that Israel makes Palestinians’ lives very difficult. In terms of access to healthcare, education, transport and job opportunities etc.

I deplore Hamas and don’t think a life under Hamas is one I would want to have. But I think the Israeli government has also played a huge role in the shit quality of life for Palestinians. Or do you truly believe it’s the civilians’ fault too?

Some of your comments are starting to feel very uncomfortable and victim-blaming to me, however politely you articulate them.

I can’t see where you have acknowledged this at all. Maybe I have missed it? If so, apologies.

Being Jewish I can’t even read these threads as it’s too upsetting. I actually know relatives/friends of dead/missing individuals and have friends with sons in the Israeli army. Far too close to home for me.
Imagine being a civilian going about your business in England, and being suddenly invaded by terrorists - Isis - Hamas are Isis - don’t think for one minute they give a shit about ordinary Palestinians living their lives. There’s been no election for 14 years, they are backed by Iran.
Most Israelis (and not all Israelis are Jewish) and Palestinians want to live in peace and there are many Israeli charities who do a lot of good work, for example helping Palestinian civilians bringing them in to Israel for cutting edge medical treatment if needed.

I don’t think anyone is excusing anything. Of course what happened is wrong. But in order for the situation to try to be resolved isn’t it better to look at what has caused it? Just because people are saying there is a reason why it’s happened does not mean people are agreeing with the attacks.

Colonialism? I think you’ll find Jews were in the area long before ‘Palestinians’ were. Racism? So you’d happily invite a neighbour to share dinner with you who has publicly said they want to kill you and your family and burn your house to the ground?

Why don’t Hamas do better for their people then? Where’s the billions in aid gone? Why did Palestinians vote a group to power who’s sole aim is to kill Jews and cause chaos in the region?

@Noicant

Yes, the IDF patrols the West Bank to protect Israeli settlers.

It is very much occupied.

Some of the most moderate and reflective views regarding the Palestinian people I have seen come from Jewish friends living in Israel.

I have never thought Hamas gives a shit about their ordinary people. They just want power and will engage in whatever brutality is needed to achieve it.

I think many Palestinians are so full of hatred after living in a shitty impoverished world where they feel that Israel restricts their freedoms, that they believe that Hamas will offer them a better life. I cannot see that would be the case sadly. Not at all.

The poster I replied to has not said anything at all to suggest that they think these acts of utter brutality which are taking place right now,, rape, torture, massacring young people, parading the broken naked bodies of young women and spittimg on them, laughing, are in any way wrong

There are people in the streets of my city (London) celebrating these acts. I don't see anything to tell me that this poster doesn't feel equally celebratory about them.

@VisaWoes

"I don’t think anyone is excusing anything. Of course what happened is wrong. But in order for the situation to try to be resolved isn’t it better to look at what has caused it? Just because people are saying there is a reason why it’s happened does not mean people are agreeing with the attacks."

Exactly.

Unless we try to understand and learn from the past, nothing changes. Any historian will tell you that.

Update round up on the conflict as of 9pm 8th October 2023:

• Exchanges of fire in the towns and communities in Israel surrounding Gaza continued for the second consecutive day following the infiltration of members of Palestinian armed groups into Israel. Palestinian armed groups in Gaza continued rocket fire into Israel. Simultaneously, Israeli continued air, naval and land strikes throughout the night and morning.

• As of 20:00, according to Israeli sources, at least 677 Israelis, including possibly also foreign nationals, were killed and at least 2,000 people were injured, making it the deadliest attack in Israel in decades. Media reports estimate the number killed to be much higher. According to Israeli sources, more than 50 Israeli forces personnel and Israeli civilians, including women and children, were captured and forcibly taken into Gaza.

• As of 20:00, according to the Ministry of Health in Gaza, at least 413 Palestinians have been killed and 2,300 others injured. An additional 13 Palestinians, including one child, were killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank.

• As of 21:00, 123,538 Palestinians had been displaced in Gaza.