To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

This seems to largely be it...

We want independence and our own state!
Okay, have it
We don't want it unless Israel don't get one!
Well, they're getting one, your both from here and it's only fair you both get a state, so take it or leave it
NO!!! We want to kill all the Jews and have it ALL, so let's have a war!
Okay, you've lost the war now, so again, do you want to make peace?
NO! We want to kill all Jews!
Err, Okay, but then you can't come into Israel
WE DEMAND FREEDOM OF MOVEMENT
Well, you can move freely elsewhere, liek to countries like Egypt where you are not outright saying your intention is to murder it's citizens, but if you want to kill us you can't come in here
Fine, then we will blow up your schools and civilians and do it for decades!
Okay, well, then we will retaliate and things will get messy
OPRESSORS!!!
But you keep killing us?
It's OUR LAND
We have been through this, it is not exclusively yours, can't we just make peace?
NO, we are going to keep trying to kill you and other countries are going to help us because they want to kill you too!
Well, okay, but then we will need to blockade you to stop you sneaking in things to kill us with obviously
THIS IS AN OPEN AIR PRISON!!!
Well, we are keeping ourselves safe actually
WE DEMAND FREE MEDICAL TREATMENT FROM YOU!!!
But, you are trying to KILL us, you literally keep saying that and trying to do it
The UN ways this is an apartheid state!!
Well, yes, but in fairness you have more rights in our country than you have in your own. You don't let us live in your country AT ALL actually.
That's up to us! We want equal rights and human rights in Israel but NOT in our own country - what is so hard to understand???
Err, okay, well, if you could stop trying to kill us we might get on better?
No fuck off

This seems basically to be the gist of the whole thing, and I have rubbed the issue backwards and forwards but it seems like you have two choices: peace or fighting. If you choose peace, you can expect freedom of movement, equal treatment and to benefit from collective resources and so on. If you choose fighting, then you can't expect much from your designated enemy.

It will always boil down to the three noes

No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel

If that's your stance - probably don't expect Israel to provide you with fuel, free movement or any other things. It's a bit like a bizarre gaslighting relationship!

It’s not legitimate ‘borders’ when most of it is stolen land, with a Palestinian people that have been ethnically cleansed into camps, to the extent the remaining few have been crammed into a corner of their land.

There are Israelis on Palestinian land. Fact.

It’s not free movement and fuel you’re giving when you’ve stolen most of their land.

The ultimate aim of Israel is to annihilate Palestine.

Palestinian people that have been ethnically cleansed into camps, to the extent the remaining few have been crammed into a corner of their land

There were 950,000 Arabs in the area that is Israel / Palestine in 1948.

There is now 1.8 million in Israel, and 7.5 million in Gaza, WB and EJ combined.

The population increased by 10x -it doubled even IN ISRAEL.

How is this "the remaining few"? It's pretty ineffective "ethnic cleansing".

It’s not free movement and fuel you’re giving when you’ve stolen most of their land

Stolen how?

When did they "own" it? They never had rule over that land, it never belonged to them in the first place. They just lived on it for a time. Just like the million Jews who lived around the Arab world and now no longer do.

Stolen means to take something without legal right. So how can it be stolen if it was either purchased or given by UN declaration in accordance with international law by the rulers at the time?

How to you base who the land belongs to?

Who was "living there"?

When?
10 years ago?
50 years ago?
100 years ago?
Why aren't you screaming and shouting at the countries all around who took land, homes and property from a million Jews. Or is that okay?

The ultimate aim of Israel is to annihilate Palestine

What's your factual basis for this? Palestinians have stated several times that their ultimate aim is to annihilate Israel. They stated that openly, including in the Hamas covenant. That's why I have a factual basis for believing this is their aim (they have said so).

Israel have stated something quite different - that their ultimate aim is a safe and peaceful state for Jews. That is backed up by the evidence that they have consistently been happy to accept a two state solution, worked pretty hard to engage peace talks and offer Palestinians citizenship.

There are 6 million Palestinian refugees. Palestine has lost 90% of its land.

That is very effective, systematic ethnic cleansing.

Stolen how?

In 1948 more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war.[9] The exodus was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba,[10][11] in which between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed, village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning,[12][13] and other sites subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names,[14] and also refers to the wider period of war itself and the subsequent oppression up to the present day.[15]

The causes are also a subject of fundamental disagreement among historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre,[19]: 239–240  which caused many to leave out of panic, direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities, the demoralizing impact of wealthier classes fleeing,[20] the typhoid epidemic in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning,[21] collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders,[22][23] and a disinclination to live under Jewish control.[24][25]

Later, a series of laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented Arabs who had left from returning to their homes or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[26][27]The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[28][13][29] while others dispute this charge.[30][31][32]Nevertheless, the existence of the so-called Law of Return allowing for immigration and naturalization of any Jewish person and their family to Israel, while a Palestinian right of return has been denied, has been cited as an evidence for the charges of Apartheidagainst the State of Israel.[33][34]

Israel have stated something quite different - that their ultimate aim is a safe and peaceful state for Jews

They may state it but their actions denote annihilation.

My take on the mess, and please correct me if I’m wrong…

The tragedy of the situation is that for centuries Jews and Muslims had co-existed relatively peacefully across the Middle East. During the 17th 18th and 19th centuries, in what is now Iraq, Iran, Syria and Egypt there were large Jewish communities who whilst not necessarily dancing cheek to cheek, rubbed along with their Muslim neighbours. Occasionally there were exceptions, with there being attacks on Jewish communities in Damascus and some other centres, but generally life wasn’t too bad. In fact some of the Jews had been in those lands for so long that they saw themselves as Persian or Egyptian before they saw themselves as Jewish. Recently, wasn’t there that little old Jewish lady who lived in Cairo who was so Egyptian she wasn’t going to leave?

Amongst the Jewish communities were merchants and traders and they certainly weren’t at the bottom of the pile. It was only when the idea of a Jewish state started to be mentioned at the start of the twentieth century that the Arab states became twitchy. Those states were also courted decades later by the Nazis as an alternative to British imperialism and they responded accordingly.

It was the establishment of the state of Israel that brought out the worst. Initially, Jews were not expelled from Arab countries, but actually barred from emigrating to it, lest they strengthened it. They were being held as unwelcome guests. In the early 50’s persecution increased, life became intolerable and they were allowed to go, as long as they left behind most of their wealth. Idi Amin did much the same to the Indians 20 years later.

A lot of Arab leaders who wanted to court popularity stoked antisemitism, (Iran’s Shah being one of the exceptions) and this flight to Israel accelerated through the 50s and 60s until there were very few Jews remaining in the Arab countries.

So from what used to be a working coexistence for centuries between two semitic peoples who had quite a lot in common, they each ran deli counters free of pork and cut the ends of their willies off, we now have the most vicious and bitter conflict.

I can’t help feeling that it was the formation of the State of Israel that precipitated this. But, we are where we are now, Israel cannot just disappear, however the Palestinians have got to have far, far more than they currently do have.

Israel as a state is arrogant, aggressive and expansionist. It knows that it can get away with pretty much what it wants to because a) it has a lot of influential and powerful sympathisers in the west b) it has a lot to offer the west in terms of trade and it knows the west will always do business with it c) it knows the west needs it as a very useful ally at that end of the Med.
Israel can also play the “ We are a nation under siege.. we can’t use kid gloves with an enemy that want to see us destroyed” card.

Israel has got to make some move to show that it is serious about co-existing. Hand over the all the settlements to the Palestinians and for the guarantee of no more rockets, and using the money that they save on Iron Dome and other defense, build a decent infrastructure for the west bank. Ditto Gaza. Just a thought.

@Shumpalumpa

If Israel had wished to annhilate Palestine, it could have easily done so. Prior to the second intifada, Palestinians from Gaza and the WB could freely enter adn work in Israel. Not quite annhilation. Again, hyperbole.

On the other hand, Hamas' stated aim is to destroy Israel. And their actios ahve shown they have no compunction in targeting and slaughtering civillians. So....

As for camps, there are no camps in Israel. And the "camps" in the WB and Gaza aren't camps. They mayhave been 75 years ago for refugees but now they are simply urban neighbourhoods, no one has to live in a camp in Palestine at least. As for Palestinians in Lebanon and Syria. It's true. The Lebanese and Syrians have indeed forced Palestinians to live in camps and don't allow them to live anywhere else. But that's not Israel's fault.

Was there ethnic cleansing during the 1947-48 war? Yes, of course. When you put it in the context of the time, there was massive ethnic cleansing going on in many other places. Pakistan/India for example, Germans in Eruope, Jews. And then Arab Jews were ethnically cleansed from their homelands and went to Israel. It's very sad but in every other case, 75 years later, people have moved on. Only Palestinians still hold the keys to their huses.

By the way, my grandparetns were ethnically cleansed from Hebron in 1929. I do not agree with Jewsih settlers in Hebron now. I - and all my family - have moved on. It is a Palestinian city now. I don't keep the key to their house and neither do any of my cousins, even those whose mothers (my oldest aunts) were born in Hebron.

Why does Iraq need to be "twitchy" about a Jewish state? Does it share a border? What's the connection?

The "Farhud" happened years before the State of Israel was established.

Talk about victim blaming! They were INSPIRED by the Nazis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

@Shumpalumpa

There are 6 million Palestinian refugees

There was less than a million "Palestinians" when they started. There is now closer to 10 million. So, again, baffled over how your calling them "the remaining few" when it's a 1000% increase?

You also understand these are not refugees from 1948? Most of those are dead. These are primarily refugees from various wars they started since then. A tiny, tiny portion of that were expelled from Israel (I think about 20k) and that would be for a reason.

Palestine has lost 90% of its land

It never had any land to lose. Did it?

That is very effective, systematic ethnic cleansing

Increasing a population by 1000% is not ethnic cleansing

I can easily read Wikipedia myself. I was asking you questions, which you didn't answer.

Explain how land can be "stolen" if its not taken by illegal means. What are your criteria for declaring it stolen?

Why does Iraq need to be "twitchy" about a Jewish state? Does it share a border? What's the connection?

All the Muslim countries were unnerved by the idea of the formation of Israel. Saudi Arabia was never a great ally. It too has no border with Israel. Neither did Libya but I don't remember Ghadaffi inviting Moyshe Dayan over for a coffee.

The "Farhud" happened years before the State of Israel was established.

I am well aware that the second world war (1939-1945) occurred before Formation of Israel (1948). I stated as much in my post. I wrote
" Those states were also courted decades later by the Nazis as an alternative to British imperialism and they responded accordingly." That is my reference to the Fahud. The "decades later" was decades later than the Balfour Declaration.

Please enlighten me as to how I am victim blaming.

@ LemonyTicket · Today 03:19

This seems to largely be it..... etc.

I don't necessarily agree with all of what you wrote, but it's very nicely written.

@quiteoldad

The tragedy of the situation is that for centuries Jews and Muslims had co-existed relatively peacefully across the Middle East. During the 17th 18th and 19th centuries, in what is now Iraq, Iran, Syria and Egypt there were large Jewish communities who whilst not necessarily dancing cheek to cheek, rubbed along with their Muslim neighbours

Not really. There were pockets of relative safety, but for the most part they existed with Dhimmi status where they were not equal citizens. Over hundreds of years leaderships changed. Sometimes there would be "tolerance" and other times not. It varied from country to country but Dhimmi were subjected to a number of restrictions. That was typically segregated quarters, wearing a yellow badge or special clothes, public subservience to Muslims, not allowed to marry or socialise with Muslims, extra taxes (the jizya), limited legal rights. Throughout the Ottoman rule for example, a Jew's testimony would not count in court against a Muslim.

Sometimes a certain leader would be more liberal and in a few places Jews were allowed to do more. They did certain deals to get certain things for themselves and as a result might have attained high rank, power or influence - but it was precarious consistently with a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms. Not really the picture you paid at all.

So this is a bit of a myth really and what you have characterised is not really an accurate depiction. My own family were in Iraq until the Farhoud in 1941 and then in Egypt and even up until the 1950s they lived precariously on a whim and certainly were never equal citizens.

Arab nationalism rose in the 19th century, and with it, antisemitism. There were numerous pogrums in the run up to the establishment of Israel. Algeria in the 30s. Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yemen. Hundreds murdered and looted. They were quite a small population, so your characterisation isn't really fair. How would, for example, a small community making up 1% of the UK feel if they were frequently murdered and looted and stripped of property? Would they feel they were "living in peaceful brotherhood?"

It was the establishment of the state of Israel that brought out the worst. Initially, Jews were not expelled from Arab countries, but actually barred from emigrating to it, lest they strengthened it. They were being held as unwelcome guests. In the early 50’s persecution increased, life became intolerable and they were allowed to go, as long as they left behind most of their wealth

As I said, they were being persecuted and murdered fairly regularly. My own family fled with nothing from Iraq because as you say that what all they were allowed to do. I am not really on board with the idea that the existence of the state of Israel upset the apple cart. The truth was, Jews were already being persecuted and subjugated in their homelands and that was why they were happy and willing to abandon those homes and seek safety. As well as the right to simply exist, with fair right in law, wearing what they wanted, owning their own land and so on. Why would anyone want them to live any other way?

Israel has got to make some move to show that it is serious about co-existing. Hand over the all the settlements to the Palestinians and for the guarantee of no more rockets, and using the money that they save on Iron Dome and other defense, build a decent infrastructure for the west bank. Ditto Gaza. Just a thought

Israel has a government I genuinely can't stand - but everything in your post just makes me sigh. There's a narrative that everything was lovely when Jews were being subjugated and murdered (nothing to see here folks!) and after fleeing to form a united, safe group, on land that was either sold to them or legally given - they are kind of victim blames by you for upsetting the apple cart.

My family would have gladly stayed in Iraq (or Egypt) but people become refugees when their lives are dangerous and intolerable. It is not their fault no one wanted to give them equal human rights or anything close to it.

Israel is "serious about coexisting". That is why they have accepted every deal since 1936 and the other side has rejected it. They are dealing with extremists who don't want to negotiate and who outright state they intend to never do so.

Question is why? Why do these countries have a problem with the existence of a Jewish state thousands of kilometres from them? Why is Pakistan obsessed with Israel when they have committed actual gencoide against their fellow Muslims, let alone their ethcni cleansing and massacre of Hindus - far worse than anything Israel has ever done to Palestinians? And let's not pretend for one second htis is because anyone cares in the slightest about the Palestinian people and their plight.

Blaming the identifciation of Jews with zionism for their own persecution and massacre is victim blaming.

The Farhud massare in Iraq happened before the creation of the State of Israel. Of course, individuals and families got along but Iraq was a hostile environment for Jews long before Israel existed.

"Israel is "serious about coexisting".

That hasn't been true for a long time.

The continued building of settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory would indicate so.

The continuing election of a government hell bent on building in the OPT would indicate so.

@LemonyTicket
Ok, thanks for your analysis, maybe rose tinted specs on my part, I'd forgotten about the dhimmi. I guess I might be comparing it to the iniquitous antisemitism of Germany, Poland and Russia in the 19th and 20th centuries and thinking, well if I've gotta put up with antisemitism, I'd rather do it in an arab country where it's warmer and the food is better.

@quiteoldad

Well, antisemitism in the middle east is as old as civilisation. That's why large numbers were displaced in the first place

Well the young people inevitably get older and wiser. Seeing the pictures coming out of Israel will no doubt accelerate that.

Surely you're not suggesting that Israel controls Gaza's borders with Egypt, a sovereign state??!

I thought that how Egypt are allowed to control the Rafah border was actually strictly determined by Israel as part of the Israel-EGypt peace agreement. Israel had agreed to withdraw from the Sinai peninsula if conditions regarding the border crossing at Rafah were agreed to?

A ‘who’s the worst ‘ versus ‘who’s suffered the most ‘ when it comes to the treatment of children or civilians really is a pointless race to the bottom.
Solves nothing, helps nothing, just fuels the deaths of more and more innocents.

When I heard about these attacks I thought the same thing as I did on 9/11 - HOW did they let this happen followed very quickly by so many more people are going to die. The revenge will be awful.

Well it’s not in someone’s “eyes” is it. It is a matter of international law and agreement. Your question is ridiculous - look at the numerous UN declarations on this point.

Downing Street has projected the Israeli flag onto the PMs residence.

In Germany, Brandenburg Gate clearly stands with Israel.

In New York, the Empire State building has been lit up in colours of the Israeli flag.

In Paris, City Hall has had a projection of a fluttering Israeli flag projected onto it.

In Bosnia & Herzegovina, the Israeli flag has been projected onto Republika Srpska Palace in Banja Luka.