To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

Obviously too cowardly to. Like terrorists who open fire on unarmed festival goers, and rape and murder women then parade their naked bodies on videos while spitting on them, and all the people celebrating them doing so while living in the comfort and safety of a Western country.

Anyone who cheers rapists on is a disgusting misogynistic arsehole. I find it completely unacceptable that twatty U.K. leftists of both sexes are handwaving depraved male violence away because it suits their politics.

I'll try but it's hard to guess the exact workings of someone else's mind.

But here goes;

To you an occupier a nation, ruling over a land that they have no right to be in.

Based on your postings on this thread you believe that the Israelis as a collective, or specifically the Israeli Jews (can't tell if you're ok with Arab Israelis or not) do not have any right or claim to the land they currently live on. You believe Palestinians are the rightful owners and the Israelis to be a hostile force, occupying Palestinian land illegally.

The problem with this viewpoint is that it's just nonsense. Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews can trace their connection to the land back more than 3000 years, Palestinian Arabs can too of course, although they don't share the common thread of religion all the way through that time as the Jews do, and all have claim to the land from a historical perspective.

The only other way a people can lay claim to a land is through conquest. And that has been the accepted way of things from pretty much day one of humanity.

The Canaanites fell to the Israelites, who succumbed to the Assyrians and Babylonians. Persians seized Babylon before falling to Alexander the Great, leading to Seleucid rule. Then came the Romans, the Byzantines, various Islamic Caliphates, the Crusaders, the Ayyubids, and the Mamluks, until the Ottoman Empire seized control. They fell and were succeeded by British rule, ultimately paving the way for the formation of Israel. (I know there were even older peoples than the Canaanites and Israelites but I'm starting here as that's when Judaism emerges).

You appear to have no objection to the "might is right" method being the defacto way of determining who had the right to rule a land until the creation of the modern Israel state.

It's only then that you switch to the idea of historical connections being the determining factor, which as I said doesn't work as all sides have a claim to the land that way.

I'm sure you'll read the above it is all nonsense, and then refuse to expand or engage any further.

So, if you're not going to counter with why you think Israel is an occupier there's no need respond at all. Anything other than an explanation and I'll just assume my answer was on the button.

It’s laughable that you’re telling people to be polite when you have been anything but. And calling people deranged and twits is so polite 🙄

I don’t believe you’re an academic historian anywhere except in your imagination.

Are you drunk? It was copied and pasted, this is what you said:

"The Palestinians have suffered 95% of the murders in the conflict. Yes, I’d say they are traumatised. This isn’t about Jews, why do you keep trying to make it so?"

You are literally talking about a conflict between Arabs and Jews over leadership of the only Jewish state on earth, being fought by a group who's covenant quite literally declares it's mission as "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him".

And you are saying it is "Not about Jews"?

How could it be MORE "about Jews?

I honestly am worried there is something the matter with you!

That’s all your made-up justification. Here it is the truth summed up for you

“The actions of Israeli Governments reviewed in our report, constitute an illegal occupation and annexation regime that must be addressed,” said Commissioner Chris Sidoti.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129722

If you’re going to claim to be an academic historian at least quote people properly. Here is what I said below.

The Palestinians have suffered 95% of the murders in the conflict. Yes, I’d say they are traumatised. This isn’t about Jews, why do you keep trying to make it so? If there are Muslims and Christians in the IDF they are just as culpable. The trauma suffered by Jews in the Holocaust is visceral and real, but it wasn’t at the hands of the Palestinians.

@Marmite17

The Jews were stateless and persecuted

Yes

Israel seemed to arise from that

Yes,

They then persecuted Palestinians, took their land

Not true. The land did not belong to Palestinians. Palestine has never existed as a state, and whatever it existed as before had never been under rule of it's occupants. You really need to educate yourself on at least the most basic elements of history before arguing with people in public on such an important issue. Please read this thread, then you can form a much more valuable opinion based on the facts.

@LemonyTicket you are no way an academic nor do you come from that region. My ancestors do though that's another story. You have no understanding of that area and are deluded to think otherwise.

And yet more lies.

I seriously doubt every word from your lips.

I’ve never in my life seen an academic behave as she does. If she’s an academic I’m Marie Curie.

@Shumpalumpa

When you quote someone you don't need to quote everything they said. I quoted your first three sentences, which were the ones I was interested in responding to.

You could learn all sorts of things today. For example someone might say "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears" and it's still quoting Shakespeare, which is possible without writing out the entire script of Julius Caesar. Amazing hey?!

You're a stranger to me, so it might not come as a great surprise to say I don't really care what you think. which is generally the way I feel about strangers.

However, in the short interaction I have had with you, you have come across as:

• immensely ill informed
• highly possibly antisemitic, or at best cringingly ignorant
• needlessly confrontational
• standing up for a terrorist regime who murder innocent people in the most horrific ways ritually

I would go further than simply not "caring" what you think to finding it an active compliment that you don't rate my opinion very highly.

Any academic historian worth their salt would know that it’s extremely disingenuous (not to mention a marker of an extreme lack of integrity) to selectively quote someone to misrepresent what they said.

All your statements are wrong, which is no surprise as you’ve been nothing but wrong on this thread.

Needless to say, by your definition of complimented, you should feel VERY complimented by me.

@Shumpalumpa

What is your source for that map? The Encyclopaedia Britannica says differently

The map is the official map of the Peel Commission's first suggested partition of the area, available from many sources. However, seeing as you seemingly trust the Encyclopedia, let's go with that:

https://www.britannica.com/event/Peel-Commission

Same map, as you can see. Offer rejected.

And as for your summation of the current plan ‘a bit more than they currently have’?! You really think they’re shit on your shoe, don’t you?

Are you on substances?

Lol, what is it you think I'm justifying exactly?

International law is irrelevant in this and in general, we don't have a world government to uphold it and what is considered right and wrong is largely determined by the most powerful nation(s). I said might is right has been, and is, the defacto way of deciding things.

Interesting that you'd use a UN article to defend Hamas considering they think it's a puppet organisation controlled by Jews to further their plot for world domination.

But anway, all I'm asking is for you to explain why you think Israel are occupiers?

Where does the UN defend Hamas in that article?

So international law is irrelevant, even though Israel is a member of the UN

Might is right.

Gotcha 👍

@Shumpalumpa

The trauma suffered by Jews in the Holocaust is visceral and real, but it wasn’t at the hands of the Palestinians

Palestinians don't exist as an ethnic or national group. They are Arabs. They come from the land that is now Israel / Palestine, as well as surrounding areas like Syria, Lebanon, and what is now Jordan. The word "Palestinian" only started being used to identify these Arabs as a defined group very, very recently.

Jews, have experienced millennia of trauma at the hands of Arabs going back hundreds of years, not least, including the 1 million Jews who were expelled from their Arab homes in the 20th century nor any one of the huge number of pogrums.

That would include the Farhoud, during which my family were expelled and hundreds of Jews were murdered, looted and their homes set ablaze. There is a fantastic and informative first hand account of a survivor of how that played out: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13610702

I will quote a little piece of it though to describe what these Arabs were doing to the Jews in Bagdad in 1941:

"The men then crossed the street and screams began to emanate from the house of his mother's best friend.
"Later lots of men came outside and set the house on fire. And the men were shouting like from joy, in jubilation holding up something that looked like a slab of meat in their hands.
"Then I found out, it was a woman's breast they were carrying - they cut her breast off and tortured her before they killed her, my mother's best friend, Sabicha."

On top of that, Jews have experienced multiple wars and endless terrorist attacks at the hands of "Palestinians" for the last almost 80 years. How you can say they have suffered no trauma at their hands is beyond perplexing, but here is a list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence

I wonder how many hospitals and bomb shelters could have been built with the money and resources used to attack Israel?
Priorities.

@LemonyTicket Israelis have been trotting out that lie since the time of Golda Meir. No one believed it then and no one believes in now.

How can Palestinians keep hospitals going when Israel stops transport of fuel?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/8/8/gaza-hospital-on-breakpoint-after-israeli-bombardment

Hamas have started something that they cannot finish and which will harm those that they claim to be for far more than those that they hate.
And if it is Iran that has put the battery in the back of Hamas, I hope that Hamas is wise enough to know that Iran has as little time for any type of Arab as it does Israel/ Jewish people.
The elephant in the room of Palestinian advocacy is that it seems that Palestinian leaders and allies for Palestinian agency neither seem to love Palestine more than they hate Israel/ Jews/ Zionism.
From a philosophical/ life experience point of view, that seems to me, mere atom in this world that I am , the sticking point for Palestinian agency that will never have Palestinians "free"..
Too susceptible to manipulation and being used as a conduit for others' dirty work without those others really giving a toss about Palestinians.
I already know the outcome of this latest ism and schism. I suspect Hamas does to.

Perhaps they can use the money they got from Iran to attack Israel? They had fuel for the pick up trucks they used. They have fuel to fire rockets.
Maybe Egypt - the country they also have a border with - can provide them with fuel?
I don't think Israel wants to supply Gaza with fuel so that it can cotninue to murder Israelis since we've seen waht Hamas uses the fuel for.

Perhaps Israel could stop occupying and blockading Palestinian land so it can become self-sufficient and access its oil reserves.

Israel is not blockading Gaza - it has a border with Egypt.

Hamas - the de facto government of the self-governing Gaza - has declared war on Israel. And Israel is expected to open its borders to an enemy entity and invite them in to murder more? Or to supply fuel to Hamas?

There is no occupation of Gaza. There are no Israelis living in Gaza. There are no soliders in Gaza. israel withdrew completely from Gaza - and Hamas has shown what awaits Israel if it does the same in the West Bank. Do you think this is advancing the Palestinian cause in any way?