To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

@BlurredEdges I know and I'm so sorry. I was trying to see if @BlippiIsAnnoying would admit to that disgusting mindset on a public forum.

Obviously too cowardly to. Like terrorists who open fire on unarmed festival goers, and rape and murder women then parade their naked bodies on videos while spitting on them, and all the people celebrating them doing so while living in the comfort and safety of a Western country.

But you can’t blame an oppressed group of people for fighting back against their oppression.

a gang of men gleefully raping a beaten, bleeding woman and filming it for social media is not 'fighting back against oppression '.

it's what bastard fucking evil men do if they get the opportunity.
It has nothing to do with politics or religion or war. They had an excuse to do it, and they fucking did it.

She is someone's baby, someone's little girl, someone's daughter. It's unspeakably awful. They are evil.. This is not politics or war or strategy. It's pure evil

I'm not the one claiming one side or the other are something when I can't even define the term.

I'd suggest you broaden your own reading as you're clearly incredibly biased to one viewpoint and one viewpoints only.

🥱

I don't, see my later post. Not my words.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Whose-Promised-Land-Continuing-Palestine/dp/0745951112 Really interesting, read the unedited version about 30 years ago before a tour of Israel.
I'm no expert. I became interested in this after discovering I was really interested in RE, the history, the politics of the time.
The last two news podcasts of this conflict on BBC Sounds seem very balanced to me. Different from the printed news.

So was this little girl. Why does her life not matter? She was just sitting in her garden.

Palestinian girl dies two days after an Israeli bullet to the head

Sadil Ghasan Ibrahim Naghnaghieh, 14, was shot in the head with live ammunition by an Israeli soldier inside an armored military vehicle passing near her house in Jenin around 8 a.m. on June 19 during an Israeli military incursion into Jenin refugee camp, according to documentation collected by Defense for Children International - Palestine. Sadil was sitting in the garden of her family’s home, opposite the Zahra neighborhood north of Jenin refugee camp, and used her phone to record Israeli military vehicles on a street near her home. As an armored Israeli military vehicle passed near her house, an Israeli soldier opened the vehicle’s back door and fired two bullets at Sadil. One bullet struck the front of her head and exited from the back. Sadil was transferred to Jenin Government Hospital, where doctors reported the bullet had injured her brain, and she was declared dead around 6 a.m. today.

https://www.dci-palestine.org/palestinian_girl_dies_two_days_after_an_israeli_bullet_to_the_head

Respectfully, I think this is a bit reductive. Using this logic you can easily say the opposite is true too. That the ‘democracy’ Israel has been responsible for the deaths of over 200 palestinian civilians this year alone (prior to today’s events). Or that the same state is using collective punishment- a prohibited war crime by the geneva convention

This is like saying Luke Skywalker was responsible for the deaths of 200 storm troopers. I am not by any stretch of the imagination saying I think Israel is perfect or even that I support the specific Israeli government, but they are under sustained attack by a neighbour who's sole and only mission is to murder them. It's genuinely disingenuous to suggest that the Israeli forces just go out and randomly kill people because they feel like it.

Israel makes every day under apartheid a living hell for Palestinians in Gaza. The average age there is 18. It’s been under blockade since 2007, without access to adequate water, eduxation, health supplies; electricit, in horrific population density and poverty

Gaza is a Palestine governed separate state. It is not Israel. They are not responsible for educating Palestinians or really anything else. Infrastructure, jobs, food, is the responsibility of their democratically elected leaders. Resources like water are distributed in accordance with the Oslo accord. Half of which is wasted because Hamas blew up all the pipes and didn't fix them. They can fix all these problems if they want to -it's not up to Israel to babysit. They want to be an independent state, so they can do that. Israel are not responsible for their population density or poverty! They have had this space for nearly 80 years! If they want to govern, they should do that! And of course they are under blockade - for defence. Surrounding countries like Iran and Syria are trying to arm them to decimate Israel!

Some people today are stepping outside of this open-air prison for the first time in their lives. For me; it’s as I saw someone write earlier, “We can condemn Hamas as an entity and mourn the loss of every civilian in conflict without losing sight of the fact that Israel and its decades of violent occupation and brutality are to blame.

They are kept in Gaza because they keep trying to kill Jews! Do you know that lots of gay Palestinians apply for asylum to Israel and Israel doesn't feel able to accept them because they are worried they are Hamas plants? This is not paranoia! They have spent nearly 80 years trying to murder the Jews in any way possible! if they want freedom, they have to become a safe neighbour! And they have a border with Egypt....they are not locked in by Israel - they Arab ally won't let them move either?!

But you can’t blame an oppressed group of people for fighting back against their oppression

They are far more oppressed by their own government than anyone else. Their own government can give them freedom, democracy, education, employment, infrastructure, civil rights....they choose not to!

It's genuinely disingenuous to suggest that the Israeli forces just go out and randomly kill people because they feel like it.

This is so patently untrue it’s laughable. The IDF is an evil force.

So, you gonna define occupier then?

Any condemnation of Hamas for the 260+ bodies that have been found at the music festival, or were those the justified as freedom fighters rising up against their "occupiers"?

@Shumpalumpa

I wonder if they will condemn Giora Eiland for saying there are no innocent civilians. I doubt it

1. Who is "they"?
2. Why the fuck would whoever "they" is condemn Giora Eiland? He isn't on this thread?!

Your statement just then was just soooooo transparent.

By "they" you meant "Jews" and what you were implying rather grimly is that Jews would not condemn a Jew.

Most people don't have a clue who Giora Eiland is, including most Jews by the way. And they don't need to condemn him unless he's posted on this thread? If he has, do let me know.

This is the IDF

A 19-month-old child has died in Gaza after waiting for five months for Israel to grant her permission to leave the blockaded enclave for treatment.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/01/palestinian-baby-dies-after-treatment-delayed-by-israeli-blockade-of-gaza

Buy a dictionary, there’s a love.

I condemn all loss of innocent life. Unlike you.

Interesting question!

I mean, the Peace Train and a few other initiatives were organised by women. But, ultimately, the Republican and Loyalist terrorist groups ignored them. Swatted them aside, you might say.

A look at Irish history and you'll note its very male oriented. Generally, conflict is male oriented with women either subservient or non-existent.

But I don't really think the role of women was a critical factor in Northern Ireland in the sense of the peace process. Over nearly four decades, I don't think it lasted long.

The process itself is very male dominated irrespective of status - Tony Blair, Bertie Ahern, John Hume, David Trimble, Martin McGuinness, Ian Paisley, Gerry Adams, David Ervine and so on.

John Hume and David Trimble were joint winners of the Nobel Peace Prize for their work in Northern Ireland.

So many voices were advocating peace all along other than Hume and Trimble. Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association did and peacefully achieved very important civil rights reforms. A woman chaired NICRA early on, IIRC.

Result?

PSF/PIRA ignored it anyway as did the UVF/UDA.

Voices for peace were easily swatted aside until....you guessed it....the PIRA were infiltrated up to the top to the point their terrorists were being taken out or put in prison in significant numbers. Loyalists likewise were infiltrated a little later than PIRA. Loyalists were arrested at a rate of 2:1 PIRA from late 1980s onwards. It makes a difference.

I would definitely argue you cannot have a peace process without the security agencies enabling it by defeating a terrorist group. Anything else is fantasy and a result of the propaganda of the peace that's grown up around the Belfast Agreement since 1998.

Security makes a peace process possible!

By they I mean posters like BlurredEdges who said

They keep just repeating the same meaningless sentence. I presume they mean that all Jews are fair game - elderly women with dementia, young girls, babies, me, my daughter, my son, my mother, my father.

I've lived 40+ years with the understanding that a significant number of people don't see Jews as real humans, and revel in our pain, suffering and death

I've had it said to me, more or less explicitly, more than once.

It doesn't make it any easier to hear.

Hopefully it will be just hard for them to hear an entire people described by the Israel head as not having any innocent civilians.

You'll have to show me were I've not condemned murder.

All I did was ask you what makes Israel and occupier in your mind, and you've been unable or unwilling to answer.

@saffronsoup an Israeli life has always been more valuable than a Palestinian life that's a fact which is why this part of the world is in conflict.
In a normal fair and square world both lives are equally the same. The Palestinian children that were bombed for decades all had parents, families and future birthdays to celebrate in Palestine. But as usual, the Israeli life is more valuable.

Look at the western media, full accounts of victims, their backgrounds, images and how normal they look just like the Ukrainian war, with reporters saying they are just like us.

Any aggression from Israel which has always been the case they illegally occupy and hundreds of dead children the media would just show rubbles, kids throwing stones and kid holding a gun justifying Israel's horrific ethnic cleansing. The Israeli kids writing disturbing messages on rockets that were about to be sent to kill Palestinians would be celebrated and normalised in western media but the Palestinians will always be portrayed as terrorists living in medieval times with their rugged outfits. This is what the media wants you to see and this is why Palestine have never stood a chance and will never equate to the same value as an Israeli life.

Any Israeli sympathiser, I hope you wouldn't have to live a day a Palestinian has lived through losing their homes, families, their livelihoods, their freedoms, basic healthcare, no where to escape, belittled, bullied and bombed. Oh yes right, you never had to because you support a terrorising state and live in countries that are too scared to even condemn them and upset their Jewish lobbies.

How can Gaza even begin to function as a country with the continued blockade that has been condemned by the UN, World Bank and a number of other agencies/countries

it’s simply can’t and neither can the Palestinian people prosper in the West Bank

lets not pretend that this Israeli government wants this

@Shumpalumpa

ME:
It's genuinely disingenuous to suggest that the Israeli forces just go out and randomly kill people because they feel like it

YOU:
This is so patently untrue it’s laughable. The IDF is an evil force

All deaths of Palestinian civilians committed "randomly" because the IDF "felt like it" would be reportable to the UN and they'd be answerable to the geneva convention.

Stop talking pish.

Israel might be a very unpleasant government but they target Hamas terrorists or member of Palestinian Islamic Jihad who both go out of their way to try and get their own kids and civilians killed so they can then gain international sympathy from useful idiots.

Any unlawful killings are reported and tracked. There are a few, as there are in any conflict, but as a rule they absolutely do not target innocent civilians for fun. As a rule they actually have to follow pretty strict protocol on use of force.

You’ll have to show me where I’ve not condemned murder either.

And I’ve repeatedly told you the question is too laughable to answer.

If you wish to answer your own question, crack on.

I’ve linked articles to senseless IDF killings or allowing of deaths.

Israel doesn’t give a shit about the Geneva conventions whilst it has US support. Don’t talk ‘pish’.

Oh by the way I forgot to add, Hamas doesn't even work for Palestines best interest. Hamas works for Israel's best interest. There I've said it.

Any unlawful killings are reported and tracked. There are a few, as there are in any conflict, but as a rule they absolutely do not target innocent civilians for fun. As a rule they actually have to follow pretty strict protocol on use of force.

Do you actually believe your own crap? Few killings? Reported and tracked?

No one buys this shit.

The Jews were stateless and persecuted. Israel seemed to arise from that. They then persecuted Palestinians, took their land.
The occupied territories I saw were noticeably poorer, even 30 years ago.
I think Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed. I believe, I don't really know, haven't seen it with my own eyes, that the posts about the hardships endured by them are true. The Israeli control over water and power, electricity, internet.
This in no way excuses atrocities against civilians. Which have happened on both sides.

Like Stella Braverman ? Priti Patel ? Margaret Thatcher? No thanks