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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

1000 replies

theotherfossilsister · 07/10/2023 19:48

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

OP posts:
Thread gallery
44
CanNeverThinkOfAName · 08/10/2023 23:54

@BlippiIsAnnoying - Please expand on your comment that there are no innocent civilians. Do you mean Jews in particular or any civilian?

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:54

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 23:51

@Truthisbetterthanlies

And fwiw, my family DID have its home and land taken from them. Actually, it had everything they owned taken from them. And many family members brutally murdered. You might have heard of it. It was called the Holocaust

Mine too!

My family fled to the UK as refugees

Mine too!

Yet I assure you that NEVER have I had the slightest inclination to start massacring, raping or torturing Germans as a result

Me neither!

It's weird isn't it?!

No one has condoned killing or rape. Palestinians were sacrificed for German atrocities, so your analogy doesn’t hold.

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 23:54

@KimberleyClark

Hamas are a terrorist organisation. They do not represent the Palestinian people as a whole

Hamas are the elected government of Gaza. they won an election with 74 of the 132 seats and in second place was Fatah with 45 who at the time were also designated a terrorist organisation. Lots of people ran in those election and nobody with even remotely moderate views got anywhere at all!

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 23:56

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:46

What the fuck are you on about? Why wouldn’t my government be the UK?

Is this your wink wink dog whistle racism?

Why are you posting on this forum? Are you in Israel?

<speaks slowly>

You said your government doesn't support Israel. I pointed out that the British government - my government - DOES support Israel. Because they've just said so.

So I asked where you live.

It turns out that you do live in the UK - as much as a bot can live anywhere - but apparently never read the news. 😂

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 23:57

@Shumpalumpa

Palestinians were sacrificed for German atrocities, so your analogy doesn’t hold

What are you talking about?

BlurredEdges · 08/10/2023 23:58

CanNeverThinkOfAName · 08/10/2023 23:54

@BlippiIsAnnoying - Please expand on your comment that there are no innocent civilians. Do you mean Jews in particular or any civilian?

They keep just repeating the same meaningless sentence. I presume they mean that all Jews are fair game - elderly women with dementia, young girls, babies, me, my daughter, my son, my mother, my father.

I've lived 40+ years with the understanding that a significant number of people don't see Jews as real humans, and revel in our pain, suffering and death

I've had it said to me, more or less explicitly, more than once.

It doesn't make it any easier to hear.

Shumpalumpa · 09/10/2023 00:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 00:00

@Shumpalumpa

Palestinians were sacrificed for German atrocities, so your analogy doesn’t hold.

Can you put that in English please?

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 00:00

Indeed @BlurredEdges the mask slips a lot more easily than some of these folks intend it to!

Shumpalumpa · 09/10/2023 00:01

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 00:00

@Shumpalumpa

Palestinians were sacrificed for German atrocities, so your analogy doesn’t hold.

Can you put that in English please?

Can you learn to read English first please?

MMBaranova · 09/10/2023 00:01

Just a reminder if you are in the UK (my selected bullet points, fuller listing in link), with Hamas in mind.

It a criminal offence to:

  • invite support for a proscribed organisation (the support invited need not be material support, such as the provision of money or other property, and can also include moral support or approval) (section 12(1))
  • express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, reckless as to whether a person to whom the expression is directed will be encouraged to support a proscribed organisation (section 12(1A))
  • wear clothing or carry or display articles in public in such a way or in such circumstances as to arouse reasonable suspicion that the individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation (section 13)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

Proscribed terrorist groups or organisations

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

Shumpalumpa · 09/10/2023 00:02

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 00:00

Indeed @BlurredEdges the mask slips a lot more easily than some of these folks intend it to!

Yep, like all the wink wink racist piss off out of the UK posts.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 00:02

Shumpalumpa · 09/10/2023 00:01

Can you learn to read English first please?

So you're not going to post in English.

Shumpalumpa · 09/10/2023 00:02

Where does it say the UK supports Israel occupying Gaza?

DownNative · 09/10/2023 00:02

KimberleyClark · 08/10/2023 23:33

Hamas are a terrorist organisation. They do not represent the Palestinian people as a whole.

True, Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinian population as a whole.

But equally true to say Hamas has majority Palestinian support. In 2021, it was 53% in favour of Hamas v 14% in favour of Abbas' Fatah.

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

So concerning is the rise in support for Hamas that Biden has been trying to shore up Abbas for the last two years. Doesn't seem to be working.

"The Biden administration and the international community are meanwhile looking to bolster Abbas. Hamas drove his forces out of Gaza in 2007, confining his Palestinian Authority to parts of the Israeli-occupied West Bank."

Hamas will likely increase Palestinian support for themselves after yesterday. It might be only a matter of time until Hamas have 70% Palestinian support.

And that would be catastrophic. Would certainly kill off any attempt to revive the peace process with Abbas and Palestinian Authority.

NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence (NATO StratCom COE) stated in 2014 the following:

"Local Gazans are not necessarily ideologically linked with Hamas’ struggles, but rather are facing existential crises, e.g. loss of life, livelihood, property, and controlled access to basic necessities (e.g. food/
water/medicines), and this level of duress causes Gazans to choose the closer, more tangible support
system, i.e. Hamas.

Given the demographic and geographic conditions within which Hamas operates, there is a relationship between
geographic proximity and governance where Hamas uses its governance framework to control (providing or with-
holding) access to vital goods and services.

Reliance on or rejection of ‘alternative welfare’ networks provide the

Gazan population with limited options:

(1) They can support and defend Hamas’ ideology and Hamas’ tactics (including the use of human
shields) – be it out of conviction, existential necessity, fear, or due to lack of alternatives.

*
*

(2) They can support Hamas’ ideology, but reject Hamas’ tactics.

(3) They can passively or actively break with Hamas’ ideology and reject Hamas’ tactics, although in
doing so they risk loss of life, livelihood, property, and collateral social and familial degradation
and distancing (this can include emigrating).

Given these choices for Gazans, Israel’s use of PsyOps would not only need to capture first order repercussions
for Gazans choosing to reject ideology and/or practices but it would also need to consider second and third
order effects of Gazans who would prefer to stay in Gaza or cannot leave Gaza (for a variety of reasons). The
likelihood of a narrative or strategic communications plan to have this penetration is unlikely.

Furthermore, the
inability of Israel to provide alternatives for Gazans could backfire and provide more fodder for Hamas to recruit

and retain supporters (active and passive). Should Israel or Israeli partners not be able to fill the vacuum provided by Gazans breaking with Hamas, the Gazan population could be placed in a more vulnerable and exploitable
position by Hamas and foreign sympathisers who will seize upon this narrative for their own purposes.

Successful PsyOps plans should ideally move audiences along a psycho-social continuum that spans internal-

ising messaging using critical thinking to externalising behavioural changes.

Consequently, PsyOps must:
*
*

(1) Foment dissent in targeted populations; and

(2) Produce active and passive rejection of a worldview or set of associated practices.

Should the first pillar be achieved without the second, the operation will likely be unsuccessful. There is a limit-

ed likelihood of success in the case of Hamas’ use of lawfare and Israel’s ability to successfully counter these
messages through PsyOps."

Given the near complete control Hamas has of Gaza and increasing support in the West Bank, how is it possible for Israel’s PsyOps to change the security situation for Palestinians?

Remove the threat and you remove the security checkpoints along with everything else which would be a start towards better relations.

But Hamas' autocratic control AND support from a majority of Palestinians makes this nigh on impossible.

It also makes it MORE likely that Hamas will grow support to the point where you cannot say they don't reflect the population they draw from.

Of the three options NATO StratCom COE identify as available to Palestinians, 1 & 2 are far more likely than 3. Even 2 is problematic because all terrorist groups draw oxygen from their ideology. Its not enough to condemn terrorist tactics if you're supporting their ideology. Doing so is likely to eventually grow support for Hamas.

I cannot see Gazans rising up against Hamas who are really the reason for all the security checkpoints, emergency legislation, presence of Israeli soldiers, restrictions on leaving Gaza, lack or absence of Foreign Direct Investment for jobs, etc.

Israel may not be able to foment a dissent population there either. Yet they're constrained internationally from taking Hamas apart. Hamas' abuse of civilians and civilian infrastructure is another obstacle to the Isreaelis wiping Hamas out.

Palestinians gather during a Hamas rally in Gaza City, Wednesday, June 9, 2021. Hamas militants held a rally to commemorate the members of the group who were killed in an 11-day war with Israel in May. (AP Photo/Felipe Dana)

Poll finds dramatic rise in Palestinian support for Hamas

JERUSALEM (AP) — A new poll released Tuesday finds a dramatic surge in Palestinian support for Hamas following last month's Gaza war, with around three quarters viewing the Islamic militants as victors in a battle against Israel to defend Jerusalem and...

https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 00:03

MMBaranova · 09/10/2023 00:01

Just a reminder if you are in the UK (my selected bullet points, fuller listing in link), with Hamas in mind.

It a criminal offence to:

  • invite support for a proscribed organisation (the support invited need not be material support, such as the provision of money or other property, and can also include moral support or approval) (section 12(1))
  • express an opinion or belief that is supportive of a proscribed organisation, reckless as to whether a person to whom the expression is directed will be encouraged to support a proscribed organisation (section 12(1A))
  • wear clothing or carry or display articles in public in such a way or in such circumstances as to arouse reasonable suspicion that the individual is a member or supporter of a proscribed organisation (section 13)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/proscribed-terror-groups-or-organisations--2/proscribed-terrorist-groups-or-organisations-accessible-version

Thanks, very helpful reminder, given many posts on this thread.

Shumpalumpa · 09/10/2023 00:03

Truthisbetterthanlies · 09/10/2023 00:02

So you're not going to post in English.

So you’re not going to learn English.

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 00:05

@Shumpalumpa

Where does it say the UK supports Israel occupying Gaza?

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005!

Shumpalumpa · 09/10/2023 00:05

“The Foreign Ministers of Australia, Canada and the UK are deeply concerned by recent events in Israel and the West Bank which further reduce the prospects for peace.

We are gravely concerned by the Government of Israel’s approval on June 26 of over 5,700 new settlement units in the West Bank. We are also concerned by the changes to the settlement approval process instituted by the Government of Israel on June 18, which facilitate swifter approval of construction in settlements.
The continued expansion of settlements is an obstacle to peace and negatively impacts efforts to achieve a negotiated two-state solution. We call on the Government of Israel to reverse these decisions.”

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/joint-international-statement-following-recent-events-in-israel-and-the-west-bank

Livinginanotherworld · 09/10/2023 00:05

kαλοκαλοκαιρι · 07/10/2023 21:10

Respectfully, I think this is a bit reductive. Using this logic you can easily say the opposite is true too. That the ‘democracy’ Israel has been responsible for the deaths of over 200 palestinian civilians this year alone (prior to today’s events). Or that the same state is using collective punishment- a prohibited war crime by the geneva convention.

That is not to say that I wish to use anything in the above paragraph to justify the targeting of innocent civilian, which is reprehensible and indefensible in any scenario, no matter the perpetrator. But I think the nuance here that’s getting overlooked is that not every Palestinian fighting for freedom is Hamas are they? Israel makes every day under apartheid a living hell for Palestinians in Gaza. The average age there is 18. It’s been under blockade since 2007, without access to adequate water, eduxation, health supplies; electricit, in horrific population density and poverty.

Some people today are stepping outside of this open-air prison for the first time in their lives. For me; it’s as I saw someone write earlier, “We can condemn Hamas as an entity and mourn the loss of every civilian in conflict without losing sight of the fact that Israel and its decades of violent occupation and brutality are to blame.”

I’m terrified for friends on both sides of the wall in Tel Aviv and the West Bank tonight. But you can’t blame an oppressed group of people for fighting back against their oppression.

My opinion only.

I agree with what you have written.

BlippiIsAnnoying · 09/10/2023 00:06

I'm glad you all pulled me up on that disgusting statement.
For what it's worth it's not mine.
It was said by Giora Eiland, ex Head of Israel's Security Council talking about Gaza.
This Week

For what it's worth I don't believe it.
I saw red about all the posts saying Gaza should be carpet bombed and I'm sorry for the goady post.

The point I am trying to make is until Palestinian citizens and Israeli citizens are treated equally I just don't see a way out.

War crimes wherever they are carried out need to be prosecuted.
Until that happens I just can't see a solution.

Ex-Israeli general compares Gaza to Nazi Germany, says there are no 'innocent civilians' there

The latest Speed Read,/speed-reads,,speed-reads, breaking news, comment, reviews and features from the experts at The Week UK

https://theweek.com/speedreads/448769/exisraeli-general-compares-gaza-nazi-germany-says-there-are-no-innocent-civilians-there

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 00:08

@Shumpalumpa

We are gravely concerned by the Government of Israel’s approval on June 26 of over 5,700 new settlement units in the West Bank. We are also concerned by the changes to the settlement approval process instituted by the Government of Israel on June 18, which facilitate swifter approval of construction in settlements.
The continued expansion of settlements is an obstacle to peace and negatively impacts efforts to achieve a negotiated two-state solution. We call on the Government of Israel to reverse these decisions

I am going to imagine randomly murdering civilians, raping people, kidnapping kids and parading bodies of tourists around like trophies might also be taken as an obstacle to peace......

Shumpalumpa · 09/10/2023 00:08

BlippiIsAnnoying · 09/10/2023 00:06

I'm glad you all pulled me up on that disgusting statement.
For what it's worth it's not mine.
It was said by Giora Eiland, ex Head of Israel's Security Council talking about Gaza.
This Week

For what it's worth I don't believe it.
I saw red about all the posts saying Gaza should be carpet bombed and I'm sorry for the goady post.

The point I am trying to make is until Palestinian citizens and Israeli citizens are treated equally I just don't see a way out.

War crimes wherever they are carried out need to be prosecuted.
Until that happens I just can't see a solution.

I wonder if they will condemn Giora Eiland for saying there are no innocent civilians. I doubt it.

Shumpalumpa · 09/10/2023 00:09

LemonyTicket · 09/10/2023 00:08

@Shumpalumpa

We are gravely concerned by the Government of Israel’s approval on June 26 of over 5,700 new settlement units in the West Bank. We are also concerned by the changes to the settlement approval process instituted by the Government of Israel on June 18, which facilitate swifter approval of construction in settlements.
The continued expansion of settlements is an obstacle to peace and negatively impacts efforts to achieve a negotiated two-state solution. We call on the Government of Israel to reverse these decisions

I am going to imagine randomly murdering civilians, raping people, kidnapping kids and parading bodies of tourists around like trophies might also be taken as an obstacle to peace......

My government doesn’t support that or Israeli occupier settlements.

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