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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

1000 replies

theotherfossilsister · 07/10/2023 19:48

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

OP posts:
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44
Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 23:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BlurredEdges · 08/10/2023 23:30

BlippiIsAnnoying · 08/10/2023 23:28

"There are no innocent civilians." (Quotation marks added by MNHQ for clarity)

Sorry - what?

KimberleyClark · 08/10/2023 23:33

etmoietmoietmoi · 08/10/2023 23:27

Wait till you hear about how Hamas treat Palestinians. Anything to say about Hamas incidentally?

Hamas are a terrorist organisation. They do not represent the Palestinian people as a whole.

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:33

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 08/10/2023 23:30

Why can't you answer the question?

Because the question is so laughable as to be not worth my time.

BlurredEdges · 08/10/2023 23:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Mine too. And - yeah - like you, I can't imagine any circumstance where I would be celebrating and excusing the torture and rape and murder and desecration of women and children and the elderly.

Not even if they were the families of fucking Einsatzgruppen. Or the SS. Because no one with any humanity left in them could see those things and not feel immense pain and deep deep sadness and fear.

The fact that some people are watching those videos and are OK with what's being done to those people because they are Jews... some things never fucking change, do they.

Marmite17 · 08/10/2023 23:35

saffronsoup · 07/10/2023 22:19

The Palestinian civilians are the ones who have suffered the most and will suffer the most. Thousands of them have been killed by Israel attacks on Palestine and many thousand (or tens of thousands) will die in this war. What Hamas did was horrific but an Israeli life and a Palestinian life are of the same value to me so I don’t dismiss the thousands of Palestinians who have died. The number of Israeli’s killed is miniscule compared to the number of Palestinians killed. Hamas has started a war that Israel will finish and the ones who will lose are Palestinians.

Completely agree.
It is such a complex situation.

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 23:35

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 23:20

@Jazzandblues

there is no group more vile than Zionist

Read you loud and clear here maestro! Wink wink.

This Antisemite Bingo's really crap quality.

I wish they could get one that could manage grammar properly.

Can't they upgrade to ChatGPT 4? But guess they can only afford the free version.

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 23:37

@KimberleyClark

How they treat the Palestinians

Well, yes, there are other democracies that treat people far worse than Israel treats Palestinians. Although this makes me wince a little bit. Within Israel, Arabs are afforded equal rights and are generally very happy. I think the vast majority do NOT want to be Palestinian citizens.

As for how they "treat Palestinians" - then you're really talking about a neighbouring country (or two areas which comprise a country) who have been warring with them and blowing them up for nearly 80 years. So I am honestly not sure how people want them to be "treated". Generally when people are warring and fending off attacks from neighbours they don't get on.

Can you tell me what you think Israel should do for their neighbouring country? Genuine question? And do you think before doing those things it would be reasonable to ask that country to ceasefire first?

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 23:38

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:03

🤣

Laughable lie.

Except it's true.

quiteoldad · 08/10/2023 23:38

@ Limony
Abbas on the west bank is working with Israel to stop Hamas's increasing terrorist cells. They just took a huge shipment of tanks and weapons to get it under control.

Indeed he did, but Abbas does not have a great deal of popular support amongst the Palestinian West bank population. He's seen as weak and corrupt by his own people and almost a traitor by those living in Gaza. People living in Gaza see what's happening in the occupied territories and it fuels their anger.

BlippiIsAnnoying · 08/10/2023 23:39

BlurredEdges · 08/10/2023 23:30

Sorry - what?

There are no innocent civilians.

MarySmit · 08/10/2023 23:40

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:24

Your occupier views are not shared by my government.

Why do you condone annexation of land and subjugating a whole people?

What is 'your government '?

If it's the UK, then rape, murder and kidnapping are against the law. Crawl back under a rock you came from. There is no place for you in a democratic country.

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:41

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 23:38

Except it's true.

Bullshit.

Haffiana · 08/10/2023 23:43

BlippiIsAnnoying · 08/10/2023 23:39

There are no innocent civilians.

Are you a civilian? Are your children civilians?

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 23:43

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:24

Your occupier views are not shared by my government.

Why do you condone annexation of land and subjugating a whole people?

Where do you live then?

Why are you posting on a UK forum?

The UK government has made it absolutely clear it does support Israel.

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:44

MarySmit · 08/10/2023 23:40

What is 'your government '?

If it's the UK, then rape, murder and kidnapping are against the law. Crawl back under a rock you came from. There is no place for you in a democratic country.

You mean the same rape that Israelis are committing against Palestinian women and even gang rape of Israeli female soldiers?

What is YOUR government? There is no place for Israeli occupier supporters in my democratic country.

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 23:45

@DownNative

I mean, can you really envisage Hamas agreeing to decommissioning of weapons or accepting Israel has a right to exist as a State?

Herein lies the problem.

There are rules or boundaries within which most of humanity lives. Most of us, for example, would not be willing to put on a suicide vest or drive a plane into the Twin Towers. It takes a special kind of radicalisation to do that. To literally feel your life is not worth anything and killing / murdering hundreds or thousands of innocent people is a victory of some sort.

That isn't really warfare is it? There was some idea within various cultures of quite aggressive warfare - often people being needlessly aggressive through history. But largely people don't want to die or kill innocent people who are not involved in the battle you're fighting.

So this debate begins from the sad reality that the people in charge of Gaza right now (Hamas) are operating within a framework where they do not want peace. They want to kill Jews. That's it. And they don't care who dies from their own side to achieve that.

So no, I think there's no chance of that.

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 08/10/2023 23:45

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:33

Because the question is so laughable as to be not worth my time.

Nah, that's not it. I think it's because if you were to define what an occupier is you'd have to hold your side to the same definition.

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:46

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 23:43

Where do you live then?

Why are you posting on a UK forum?

The UK government has made it absolutely clear it does support Israel.

What the fuck are you on about? Why wouldn’t my government be the UK?

Is this your wink wink dog whistle racism?

Why are you posting on this forum? Are you in Israel?

Shumpalumpa · 08/10/2023 23:47

Thebestwaytoscareatory · 08/10/2023 23:45

Nah, that's not it. I think it's because if you were to define what an occupier is you'd have to hold your side to the same definition.

Crack on and define it. Go read a book and educate yourself.

BlippiIsAnnoying · 08/10/2023 23:48

Haffiana · 08/10/2023 23:43

Are you a civilian? Are your children civilians?

Yes we are.

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 23:49

@BlippiIsAnnoying

There are no innocent civilians

Oh really. 🙄

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 23:51

@Truthisbetterthanlies

And fwiw, my family DID have its home and land taken from them. Actually, it had everything they owned taken from them. And many family members brutally murdered. You might have heard of it. It was called the Holocaust

Mine too!

My family fled to the UK as refugees

Mine too!

Yet I assure you that NEVER have I had the slightest inclination to start massacring, raping or torturing Germans as a result

Me neither!

It's weird isn't it?!

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 23:52

DownNative · 08/10/2023 23:19

In Northern Ireland, we always had a democratic route towards a united Ireland or staying in the UK. This is seen in the 1973 Northern Ireland Constitution Act, Sunningdale Agreement and Anglo-Irish Agreement. The 1999 Belfast Agreement really kept the principle of consent and a referendum from the previous ones, so that was not new or different.

No, the thing that made the difference in Northern Ireland was the Provisional IRA being defeated, especially ideologically. As far as PIRA was concerned the conflict was with the UK Government. The Loyalists were irrelevant to them, so them stopping wasn't going to make the Troubles end. The UK Government certainly wasn't going to leave - SDLPs John Hume argued if the UK did, then Northern Ireland REALLY would be plunged into civil war like in Lebanon. They didn’t so we weren't.

That left the PIRA. Defeat them and the conflict would end. Long story short, that is what happened. See PIRAs John Crawley saying they were defeated, for example.

So, in terms of the Middle East, how do you think the conflict there can end?

Israel isn't going to dissolve itself or leave. They do have the military capability to destroy Gaza and West Bank, but they are really constrained by their commitment to international law as noted by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence (NATO StratCom COE).

Hamas isn't going to drop its fundamentalist position in wanting to destroy the State Of Israel. They see Israeli commitment to international law as well as requiring the support of Israelis and Western States such as the USA as a weakness. Hence Hamas use civilians and civilian infrastructure as shields. Hamas attack Israel using civilians and civilian infrastructure too.

The UN and NATO StratCom COE have confirmed this is what Hamas does. For Hamas, it's a win-win thing for propaganda to behave like this. But lose-lose for Israel.

Hamas must be defeated, but the problem is HOW can Israel do it without losing the support it needs?

People need to understand the kind of terrorism Hamas employs. They're far nastier than the PIRA was and PIRA was bad enough, let me tell you. Unlike PIRA, Hamas is backed by another State - Iran.

From my perspective, Northern Ireland really doesn't have any substantial relevance to the Middle East conflict resolution. The Belfast Agreement is not really a suitable blue print for the Palestinians and Israelis. It hasn't truly worked in Northern Ireland either - the conflict largely moved into a different mode and terrorism still occurs anyway.

I mean, can you really envisage Hamas agreeing to decommissioning of weapons or accepting Israel has a right to exist as a State?

It really doesn't look like it. Terrorist groups must disarm, but sovereign States do not. Hamas will baulk at that!

Really appreciate your interesting posts and comparisons with N Ireland.

I wondered if you thought that a factor that I think (?) was involved in the N Ireland Peace Process (I'm no expert!) - namely the role of women in kickstarting peace - might be useful in the Middle East too?

I say that because both societies are quite misogynistic/patriarchal, and feel like the women might actually listen to each other more?

Or am I misremembering this or making it up? 😂

Truthisbetterthanlies · 08/10/2023 23:53

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 23:51

@Truthisbetterthanlies

And fwiw, my family DID have its home and land taken from them. Actually, it had everything they owned taken from them. And many family members brutally murdered. You might have heard of it. It was called the Holocaust

Mine too!

My family fled to the UK as refugees

Mine too!

Yet I assure you that NEVER have I had the slightest inclination to start massacring, raping or torturing Germans as a result

Me neither!

It's weird isn't it?!

It is weird. Almost as though some of those on this thread who are apologists for Hamas terrorism have no idea what they're talking about??!

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