To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

Why the fuck do you think you can police what people post? Wind your neck in.

You've missed out the bit where the original inhabitants of the UK were driven from their homes and then persecuted wherever they tried to settle.

Then when they were finally able to return to their home they found it was occupied by inhabitants who, don't just not want them there but, want them erased from existence, and who reject every and all attempt at finding a solution.

Same as India/Pakistan, and across Western Africa. Similar consequences everywhere.

Irony really isn’t the right word.

Israeli army officer convicted of raping Palestinian woman

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-army-officer-convicted-of-raping-palestinian-woman/2397795

That seems an odd thing to judge Israel on compared to other democracies.

Other democracies are fortunate enough not to have the Palestinians as next door neighbours.

Let's switch that round.

If you had Hamas next door, coming into your country and massacring hundreds of your young people at a music festival, carting off dozens, including even babies, the elderly and whole families as hostages, raping your women, desecrating their corpses etc - how would you react??

How would you like your government to react?

Can't wait to hear your reply.

Other democracies are fortunate enough not to have the Palestinians as next door neighbours.

Other countries are fortunate not to have Israeli occupiers next door.

And that makes it okay? Are you serious? Can you hear yourself? I despair.

@MehtotheChristmasrunup

You every other side has said this about the “other side” from time immoral ? Why are Hamas terrorist rather than having a proper army like Israeli?

Why are the Taliban? Why are ISIS? Because they choose to fight using terrorism rather than negotiate peace at the boardroom table.

They have built a proper army. With Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon fighting with them. More than once. They lost. So instead of accepting it, they decided to kill civilians.

In Northern Ireland, we always had a democratic route towards a united Ireland or staying in the UK. This is seen in the 1973 Northern Ireland Constitution Act, Sunningdale Agreement and Anglo-Irish Agreement. The 1999 Belfast Agreement really kept the principle of consent and a referendum from the previous ones, so that was not new or different.

No, the thing that made the difference in Northern Ireland was the Provisional IRA being defeated, especially ideologically. As far as PIRA was concerned the conflict was with the UK Government. The Loyalists were irrelevant to them, so them stopping wasn't going to make the Troubles end. The UK Government certainly wasn't going to leave - SDLPs John Hume argued if the UK did, then Northern Ireland REALLY would be plunged into civil war like in Lebanon. They didn’t so we weren't.

That left the PIRA. Defeat them and the conflict would end. Long story short, that is what happened. See PIRAs John Crawley saying they were defeated, for example.

So, in terms of the Middle East, how do you think the conflict there can end?

Israel isn't going to dissolve itself or leave. They do have the military capability to destroy Gaza and West Bank, but they are really constrained by their commitment to international law as noted by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence (NATO StratCom COE).

Hamas isn't going to drop its fundamentalist position in wanting to destroy the State Of Israel. They see Israeli commitment to international law as well as requiring the support of Israelis and Western States such as the USA as a weakness. Hence Hamas use civilians and civilian infrastructure as shields. Hamas attack Israel using civilians and civilian infrastructure too.

The UN and NATO StratCom COE have confirmed this is what Hamas does. For Hamas, it's a win-win thing for propaganda to behave like this. But lose-lose for Israel.

Hamas must be defeated, but the problem is HOW can Israel do it without losing the support it needs?

People need to understand the kind of terrorism Hamas employs. They're far nastier than the PIRA was and PIRA was bad enough, let me tell you. Unlike PIRA, Hamas is backed by another State - Iran.

From my perspective, Northern Ireland really doesn't have any substantial relevance to the Middle East conflict resolution. The Belfast Agreement is not really a suitable blue print for the Palestinians and Israelis. It hasn't truly worked in Northern Ireland either - the conflict largely moved into a different mode and terrorism still occurs anyway.

I mean, can you really envisage Hamas agreeing to decommissioning of weapons or accepting Israel has a right to exist as a State?

It really doesn't look like it. Terrorist groups must disarm, but sovereign States do not. Hamas will baulk at that!

Terrorist sympathisers here, are you living in Britain? If so, kindly piss off back to somewhere where your views are welcome. They are not here.

I stand by Israel in condemning the acts of terrorism committed by Hamas. It's men raping women, killing babies, and taking families hostage. It's not justifiable.

@Jazzandblues

there is no group more vile than Zionist

Read you loud and clear here maestro! Wink wink.

If you had a country next door that was illegally annexing your land, throwing you out of your home, terrorising you and generally making your day to day life impossible, how would you react? Can’t wait to hear your answer.

Israeli army officer convicted of raping Palestinian woman

Surely the key point here is that he was charged, tried and convicted?
Yesterday's events were more comparable to having mass rape as an official combat policy.

@ChesapeakeBay

If the U.K. were chopped into bits, made smaller and smaller, separated from its other parts and regularly invaded to create more settlements for its occupiers, and then refused to accept 'independence' of keeping our now chopped up country and expected to be grateful, would you?

The UK is an independent existing country, like Israel.

Palestine has never been a country. Ever.

Jews have just as much right to the land as Arabs do. They were asked to share and didn't want to.

Your occupier views are not shared by my government.

Why do you condone annexation of land and subjugating a whole people?

Why are Israelis occupiers in your eyes?

I’m not responding to the personal attacks. Par for the course for Israel sympathisers, but they’ll be deleted so not worth my time 🤷🏻‍♀️

Wait till you hear about how Hamas treat Palestinians. Anything to say about Hamas incidentally?

Why is a spade a spade?

@quiteoldad

That may be true for people, but certainly not for western politicians. If it were true for the politicians, they would do far more than just "Tut" when the Israeli government encourages Israelis to build settlements in the West bank. Until Israel stops that, they will continue to be seen as aggressive and expansionist

I agree with you, but remember

• the settlements are in the west bank, not gaza. Hamas has no settlements in gaza and they have made these attacks.
• Abbas on the west bank is working with Israel to stop Hamas's increasing terrorist cells. They just took a huge shipment of tanks and weapons to get it under control.

So the leadership of the West Bank PA don't support Hamas' acts of terror, despite the West Bank being the location of the settlements. So I really don't think it's to do with that.

"There are no innocent civilians." (Quotation marks added by MNHQ for clarity)

Why can't you answer the question?