To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

So how should we respond to a population that dance in the streets celebrating when it happens?

You'd kill little children? How does that make you better than anyone else carrying out atrocities?

Do you think she was referring to Arab culture or something? That's nonsensical. Arab culture is not the reserve of Hamas. The worst enemy of the Palestinian people is not Israel: it is Hamas and their anti-Semitic, misogynistic, murderous cult.

I hope that every inch of Gaza is flattened, the people driven into the sea, and every trace of their culture burned.

And so the situation goes on for eternity, more people die and those people's relatives spout the above, support more killing and so on and such forth. At some point in the future, people on both sides say they have had enough of losing loved ones, how about we sit down and figure out a way of living without such unnecessary loss.

That poster waits for threads like these specifically to air views like that without fear of recourse. They love it.

Just gonna leave this here.

Think that's probably the intention

And likely the beginning of the end of this thread which has been largely civil so far

I felt very naive about the whole situation so am trying to understand it as best I can - given it’s very complex and I hold no expertise.

So this is my understanding so far, in very simplistic terms.

Judaism is the oldest religion and originated in Jerusalem. Jewish people were persecuted out of the area way way back in something AD. (Diaspora?).

Jews were then fleeing other places because they were being persecuted and many went back to the area around Jerusalem, understandably looking for a homeland.

Meanwhile Islam had developed and taken hold and ‘Arabs’ were settled there and found it, understandably hard to be turfed out of what they saw as their homeland.

From then tensions continued and mounted.

Then over a long period of time there were various historical events such as WWs and various interventions by ‘the West’ that haven’t helped much and may well have made things worse. Interventions that one might see as being strategic and selfish rather than trying to help out of compassion (keeping the Suez Canal open for example).

There has been a long and complex search for a solution that honours the pain, hurt and anger felt by both sides and provided both with a sense of belonging.

Lots of ordinary civilians on both sides want to live peacefully side by side but some are filled with anger and take that to radical extremes.

Hamas is one such group that has taken things to extremes and is behaving in an abhorrent way. I think we can all agree that whilst we might be able to understand the feelings of anger about happenings in the past (on both sides), their actions should be condemned in the strongest terms. There is no justification for the actions I’ve been hearing about in the press.

I know my understanding is simplified and misses a lot of nuance and that there are layers and layers of context, but surely it’s possible to both understand the feelings for both sides AND utterly and unreservedly condemn the recent actions of Hamas?

Or am I missing something?

Ketchup wrote Biden has promised to supply better weapons for Israel and Sunak is promising support - not sure of what sort. But should the international community be helping to exact fearsome revenge? I know order needs to be restored, but I'd rather they were offering to help negotiate than just give one side better weapons to use on people with no food, no water and no medical supplies - who can't even flee the area.

Exactly ketchup.* However conflict is good for business. *
"According to the 2020 UK Defence and Security Export Statistics, the Middle East was the dominant UK export destination between 2011 and 2020, receiving 58% of exports,"
Although the majority of that will be for the Saudis and their allies, maintaining tension and stoking conflicts around the world does serve a purpose. UK and USA are the world's two leading exporters of arms.

If you democratically elect terrorists to run your country this is exactly what you should expect.

The irony is, this is literally what Palestinian authorities openly say about Israel. They want to obliterate it. They make no secret of that.

And yet dozens of people here are supporting them.

@LemonyTicket thank you for such considered and informative posts.

@quiteoldad I see what you are saying. But while Israel is promising fearsome revenge, all sorts of other players might get involved. I don't pretend to understand world politics in any great depth - but I think this has potential to escalate into global conflict, which won't be good for anyone. If America and the UK get involved, maybe other Muslim countries will, maybe even Russia or China. It seems a dangerous game. I'd rather they were talking about restoring order, peacekeeping and negotiation than about making sure Israel has the best weaponry to punish Gaza.

And likely the beginning of the end of this thread which has been largely civil so far

I hope not.

So what's the way forward? Here we are, at the end of the day after the Hamas incursion killed (in scaled up terms) multiple 9/11s of Israeli civilians, took hostages, and showed that Israeli defences were unprepared. Netenyahu has said that Gazans should leave. The Israeli cabinet had declared war on Hamas.

What next in terms of how things develop, how our lives are affected, and what we (in terms of this site mostly mothers) can do?

[Edited spelling]

thats part of the pickle on the worlds stage, theres that many different groups, or agendas ect, then with the media being what it is, it does seem to be difficult to truly get a full understanding of whats what, etc

Brilliant video @Ombrémermaid - an accurate and brief summary of reality that everyone should watch.

One part that people often miss is really well pointed out in this video. The leadership in Gaza could have spent the last 20 years developing things for their citizens. Desalinating water, working on agriculture, creating an economy and jobs. Yet they have indeed instead turned it into a terrorist state where people are impoverished - and some have the bizarre logic to come here and say Israeli's are not providing them with enough food. There's no other situation on earth where you'd expect someone else to provide food for their neighbouring country with it's own independent rules, but people expect Israel to operate under these very bizarre expectations!

I am Jewish with close family and friends in Israel. This is the worst day I can remember. I've been physically sick watching and reading social media and emails and WhatsApp messages from friends
Unbearable. Keep crying in front of my children. Just horrendous.

I'm genuinely shocked at the poster and I really hope it's not the end of the thread. Of course for people with a skin in the game there's going to be a bias of sorts, but I do believe most people who have posted on this thread so far - despite different perspectives and views (some who I massively disagree with) - are fundamentally decent people. I've learned a lot from some posters (esp @LemonyTicket) on here too, and it's made me realise I should have more knowledge about the situation than I do.

@AnotherTeaPlease 's post was just a reminder that we are all wired differently and some people can't (or won't) feel or demonstrate compassion towards their fellow humans.

Is anyone able to explain to me where Hamas' not inconsiderable arsenal has come from - have they spent years manufacturing 2000 missiles in secret workshops
or have they been smuggled in from other sympathetic regimes

All happening under the nose of IDF and Mossad
Breaching the tight embargo on raw materials
With all the checkpoints and controls

Can't imagine how this has happened - unless more tunnelling thro to Egypt???

When I visited Israel, something that struck me was just how much Arabs appreciated their Israeli citizenship. They did NOT want to live under the Palestinian authorities, and witnessing their harmonious relationships with their Jewish friends was very touching.

I've now noticed both on instagram and twitter that there are a lot of Iranians who are being very supportive of Israel.
It's clear from the recent demonstrations that many are against the ruling regime so maybe not that surprising?
There is footage from a football match where a big part of the crowd reacts quite angrily to a Palestinian flag.

Great video, ombremermaid

No one knows the way forward. They have hostages which makes a ground operation difficult. Also no one knows what Hezbollah in the north will do. But one thing for sure no more child games any more.