To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

@SquashedSquashess

Israel was always intended to be a “two state solution”. However, anti-Semitic sentiment is held by many Muslims (I have Muslim family members, and they make jokes about Hitler having the right idea, before anyone wants to tell me I’m wrong. Obviously not all Muslims are anti-Semitic, but it’s not unusual). So Palestine’s dissatisfaction is not just about the nation of Israel geographically, but about Jewish people being given statehood. The Palestinians were never going to cooperate with a two state solution

I think this is what people miss. They go on about atrocities on both sides but basically it's a situation where one side wants to accept what the UN decided and the other side doesn't and never will.

No amount of negotiation or kind treatment etc. will ever change that. The history of it shows that from the very beginning it was civil war, and then acts of ongoing terrorism. There were very strong attempts at peace talks during the camp david summits but honestly I think what you are saying is right.

They are never going to cooperate with a two state solution. I don't know where it goes from there. But I do think the current leadership are benefitting from the unrest and chaos and are happy for it to go on forever. They are probably living nicely in luxury and couldn't give a toss.

No I think that's why at the moment the US has no choice but to support Israel. If it got to a stage where they could not support them anymore, yes, it would be a disaster for Israelis. However this would not lead to peace in the ME or democracy or fairness because there are moderate Muslims who do not want to live under oppressive Islamist regimes and oppressive, violent regimes who want everyone to live under Islamist regimes whether they like it or not.

Nope. Your conspiracy theory signalling is too subtle for the likes of me.

Could you spell out your dog whistle, please, and say who exactly you were referring to when you said "It could also be described as politically useful to the current incumbents of one of the countries involved"?

And rephrase "countries who were sympathetic to another country in another conflict, might be less generous in sharing their warmongering goodies as a result of what has happened here" into something less cryptic, so that people actually understand the point you're trying to make?

Thanks.

"It's actually very western-centric to describe Islamic extremists as far right. Left and right wing derive from seating arrangements during the French revolution. That matters because it's misleading to impose it on a non-European ideology. The European far right are, among other things, ethnic nationalists, and actually not generally remotely interested in global conquest."

I'm sorry, you might want to break it to all those who were invaded in WWII that actually the far right are not remotely interested in global conquest?

Yes I was going to point this out!

@LemonyTicket you've done a great job with your thorough rational posting.

Jewish people have always lived in Israel. Of course the majority had to leave when the Romans forced them to and being in Europe/other parts of the middle east meant they developed a distinctive culture. There was a Jewish nationalism movement and in the end, the British decided to give them a state. It is actually a complex geopolitical situation, the ottomans had lost world war one and the British inherited this territory. I suppose from their perspective their way of exerting and maintaining control over the region was to give Jews a state within the area. However prior to that Jews were already voluntarily buying up land and forming settlements and attempting to emigrate to Israel even before world war 2. The arabs there were obviously not very happy about this, just like some people are not too happy about refugees and immigrants here. However people would always have dreams..and of course world war 2 intensified this ambition. They were granted a new state but we're attacked by the surrounding countries from the start. What the motley crew of Israeli militas did then was not all kosher but Jewish people wanted very much to have a Jewish home..and rhen the expulsion of jews out of arab lands and Jews fleeing troubled countries like russia and Ethiopia have swelled the numbers.

Did you use Chat GPT or similar? I don't understand a word of it.

www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children

Thanks @Catusrusty . This isn't something I can usually discuss outside family as I find as a rule (hope this doesn't offend)

Right wing people can be Islamophobic and I can't identify with them on most social issues of any kind.

Left wing people can be very anti Israel to a point I can't talk to them about this at all.

The people on this thread have been very polite and it's been an enjoyable exchange on a serious issue.

Glad I didn’t hold my breath. HRW has been accused of bias when reporting on human rights issues in multiple jurisdictions (and indeed, Gaza is one jurisdiction they are accused of treating with favourable bias).

These examples are one instance of stray fire, and shooting of 17 year old Palestinians who were throwing Molotov cocktails at Israeli soldiers.

Hardly on par with what has been inflicted on Israelis over the last 36 hours - the kidnap of children, the targeted purposeful killing of civilians, and the parading of bodies through Gaza.

@LemonyTicket I've just been reading your posts and wanted to thank you for your incredibly informative and well explained thoughts on the situation.

Thank you @LemonyTicket - your posts have been detailed and thoughtful on this topic

I really feel for the Palestinians. They are going to suffer even more now, the Israeli government are going to take awful, bloodletting revenge for the Hamas attacks.

Hanlon’s razor

"is the adage that you should “never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”. This suggests that when assessing people’s actions, you should not assume that they acted out of a desire to cause harm, as long as there is a reasonable alternative explanation."

That bit is from Google

@Helpmepleaseimbusy

I literally cannot abide by killing anyone, much less children, but it's important to note reality here.

Palestinian leadership in Fatah and Hamas use children in warfare. They arm them deliberately, they used them as human shields and they went through a phase of using them as suicide bombers.

They do this deliberately because they know the international community will judge Israel for killing children. Unfortunately, a lot of the time the reality is that the "murdered children" are sadly armed children radicalised and use by their own people to kill Jews.

That is fucking tragic, but it's what happens. I saw a mother online where all three of her children had been used like this by Hamas and such was her indoctrination that she volunteered them as she felt it service to Allah.

You cannot compare this to Hamas deliberately bombing schools, kidnapping children, murdering the elderly or parading naked tourists around like corpse trophies.

The brutality of these regimes and similar ones such as ISIS is beyond comprehension and anything Israel does, while frequently abhorrent, it not comparable.

Personally I think it's a very hard time to be a Jew. I feel for my people, and I feel for the Palestinians. I'm sure the average Palestinian didn't approve of what Hamas did.

Thanks so much @Mustardseed86 and @SquashedSquashess - amazed anyone put the energy into reading my droning on!

This is a really good summary

Israeli war plane are bombing entire blocks of flats in retaliation, the death toll of innocents will keep
climbing.

Very good posts, @LemonyTicket. I will add my thoughts and some detail on Northern Ireland since its been mentioned again. To put it simply, Northern Ireland is NOT comparable to the situation in Israel and Palestine. No, ours was nothing on that scale.

But I've read your posts here.

This. Someone attacks us Jews and it’s all “both sides” are terrible.

You are kidding right? Israel is protecting their country, however Palestine are labelled terrorist for protecting their own. Israel are kicking Palestine out of their home, rationing food and water. Pro Palestine here

Those who want other evidence - pls feel free to do a Google search. I don't feel the need to spoon feed people evidence. If they are truly interested in the subject and care, they can do the research themselves.
Let's also pls remember many things are not reported in the media.
It truly is an awful situation for the Palestinians.
#freepalestine #theworldwillnotforgetyou

Is the bombing of the blocks of flats just random retaliation though, or is it targeted as there's intelligence suggesting it contains Hamas targets?

I'm not saying I know either way, just wondered if anyone had any ideas.