To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

You call yourself a historian, but refuse to see beyond the now.

And have the gall to call folks like me uneducated.

Living in occupied territory is a walk in the park I assume. Try and keep people caged and eventually they will use whatever means necessary to get out. What gets done to Palestinians on a daily is pretty awful too. Which is why people are saying its sad on both sides.

1000000% this.

It's actually very western-centric to describe Islamic extremists as far right. Left and right wing derive from seating arrangements during the French revolution. That matters because it's misleading to impose it on a non-European ideology. The European far right are, among other things, ethnic nationalists, and actually not generally remotely interested in global conquest. Islam is pretty much the opposite of that, it's a universalist faith like Christianity, but with a goal of global conquest. The aspects of the far right you've picked out are not the whole story.

But of course you do have a point, there are major parallels. The Left believes that religious extremism among a group designated to be victims of capitalist imperialism can only be caused by that capitalist imperialism. This is why they'll obsess about the idea that the British created Wahhabism therefore jihadism/Islamic extremism generally (for some nefarious purpose that I forget). So the slightly more intelligent representatives of the left don't actually deny the problems with the fanatics, it's just that they blame imperialism/white people/capitalism for it.

They also believe that the ruling classes try to create islamophobia to divide and rule the working class in western countries, so they're desperately trying to prevent that by any means necessary including plenty of lying/wilful ignorance/minimizing/justifying etc.

There's also an unspoken reverse racism. They actually don't hold non-white people and ideologies to the same standards as themselves.

@TheHateIsNotGood

Just my tuppence worth - from an older perspective and one of the few things that DM and I agreed on - that neither of us could understand how Jewish Israelis could find subjugating another people (by force) so acceptable; specifically relating to the Holocaust, which left a great impact on many, many millions of people for at least two generations - not the serious direct impacts undergone by the European Jews under the Nazis - but how the rest of Western Civilisations thought about the 'horrors' that a 'civilized' society and their people could let happen

I agree with this too. I think Israel has a responsibility to the dead to be a shining beacon of human rights and justice across the middle east and they should reflect profoundly the left wing ideals that came from the Shoah. It's immensely sad they have elected a right wing horrible government.

I think it was sadly a slow slide to this (wasn't how they started) but what I think from my own experience of the Jewish community is that they have become more right wing over time, because they left have alienated them by becoming so anti-Israel. So I guess they have started to identify more with right-wing parties because they offer more support.

Which is a shame. I certainly could not go to a socialist meeting or similar in the UK. Lefties are borderline obsessed with Palestine and can make Jews very uncomfortable at best by making every conversation and every discussion about "evil zionists". I had to leave Twitter because it was making me depressed. I recall one guy screaming at me that socialist groups should demand Jews renounce Israel and if they wouldn't they were apologists for murder.

I mean, how fucking ridiculous is that? Does supporting Palestine's right to exist make you an apologist for murder? The bizarre, gung ho complete lack of logic gets very tiresome for Jews. Because, really, it starts with understanding from the outset that Hamas and Fatah are oppressors and subjugate their own people. They do not want Jews to have equal rights in their homeland.

People need to start their logic from understanding that, and from there they can better judge what actions are right and wrong from Israel. I am not saying many actions are not hugely wrong (they are) but casting them as "oppressor" is naive. Most oppressors are not oppressing a murderous regime who want to remove them from earth in coordinated genocide. Most oppressors are not "oppressing" people who strap suicide vests to children. So people need to take the full picture into account rather than judging just one side.

@Helpmepleaseimbusy the fact you get your information from Twitter says a lot about your lack of knowledge on the subject and history.

And the fact that, when hundreds of people have been killed and thousands hurt, and some kidnapped, you think it's appropriate to debate the existence of Israel when so many people are suffering says even more.

The history between Israel and Palestine is complex.

What is not complex, is understanding that killing civilians is a war crime. Palestine, led by Hamas - a terrorist organisation, has instigated this round of conflict by murdering and kidnapping innocent civilians. Including children.

There are plenty of videos going around on Twitter/X showing the brutality of Palestinian militants. The lifeless body of a young woman with her legs broken, half naked and thrown into the back of a pick up truck. Trucks with Israeli civilians including children being driven to Gaza. A toddler being beaten and called a “dirty Jew”.

Anyone who wrings their hands with whataboutery on this issue, pointing to the complex history of this conflict, seems to miss the point that this attack is unfathomably brutal and can never be justified. Hamas is a terrorist organisation that hates Jews. This is not simply a war fought on national lines, but on religious lines. Hamas is anti-Semitic, and wants to kill every Jewish person in Israel.

Any defence of the ongoing attack is frankly disgusting.

I think you are ignorant if you think Palestinians don't get treated the same way in occupied territory. Seriously.

I'm just reading about all this now in the news, blimey, sympathy for Israel, that's bloody barbaric.🇮🇱

@LemonyTicket

"Again, something you have just invented out of nowhere. But you miss the point that whether I "believe" in a two state solution is irrelevant. What matters is what solution PALESTINIANS want, and by all accounts that is "wipe Israel off the map". If it wasn't there would actually be a two state solution - wouldn't there?"

Under what regime, the current Netanyahu government, or Rabin who reached an agreement with the Palestinians, and was then assassinated by an Israeli?

@Angrycat2768

What I dont understand about the Western Left ( and I consider myself Centre Left) is that Islamic extremists are Far right. As far right as you can go. They believe in everything the European Far Right believe. The superiority of one race/religion over another, ultra nationalism, women's place being in the home, bringing up good citizens, holy war, intolerance to gays, jews etc. Why are they allied to these people?

Just my 2c on why I think this is. I think comfortable Westerners tend to like to attach to fashionable issues, and the idea of a brown / poor oppressed vs a white / rich / powerful aggressor is very seductive.

I think the left is very, very infiltrated with deeply held antisemitic ideas. Left twitter is absolutely flooded with ridiculous conspiracy theories about "zionists" being all powerful imperialists monster and they have been drawn into this without realising that they are engaging in really classic antisemitic thought patterns that are as old as the hills.

Their level of knowledge is limited largely to Facebook posts or Twitter threads and their "information" sources are often outright propaganda. Can't count how many actually share videos from Iran state media and think it's unbiased news! So they don't know much, but think they do.

So all of that combines in one very seductive package where they have cast Israel as their enemy and are able to completely overlook that they are supporting people who are actually far less aligned with their views in reality.

You should provide evidence to support your position @Helpmepleaseimbusy - I have provided plenty of descriptors you can Google and find news stories on regarding the current atrocities. Telling people they’re wrong with no future supporting reading or detail is unhelpful, and leaves you looking like the ignorant (and dare I say anti-Semitic) one in this conversation.

So I’ll wait for examples of Israelis beating Palestinian children and parading the half naked bodies of dead Palestinian women. But I won’t hold my breath.

There is no fair distribution of land that would satisfy Hamas or their supporters, so it's an irrelevant question. You could suggest 50/50, 60/40 either way, 80/20 either way and it wouldn't matter.

Hamas and those who follow the same teachings as they do believe 'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

People seem to have a very hard time in understanding that for Hamas, and many of the regimes in the Middle East, the very existence if Israel is an insult and they will never accept it.

The whole situation horrifies and saddens me from both sides.

obviously the recent attacks are terrible. taking civilian people out their homes, killing them, kidnapping them is very wrong.

2 million Palestinians are effectively kept in an open air prison in awful conditions . I have seen footage of Palestinian kids having their school books removed from them by Israeli soldiers because the books had the Palestinian flag on them. 70% of Palestinians don’t have access to a sewage network. Israel has just poured concrete down some water supplies and ripped up others. Many Palestinians inc children have been killed over the years.

I am very confused over the history and who has more claim to the land due to so much conflicting stuff.

so is the gist of it that back in the time of Jesus the Jews lived in Israel?

but at some point they left? This is what I’m not clear about, some people say they left of their own violation and just expected hundreds of years later to be able to come back? But then I’ve seen other stuff saying they were persecuted out the area and that at that point Palestinians were occupying Israel.

so Israelis believed they had a right to return. Palestinians said they didn’t have a right to return. But who is correct? 🤷‍♀️

what gave the United Nations the right to give the land back to Israel/Jewish people if the Palestinians had been there so long?

Good Grief. The fact people are posting this and commenting they agree with it is genuinely scary.

1. Israel is in breach of international law

Yes, they are. Something should be done about it. That thing is not raping, murdering and kidnapping innocent people. And NO that is not the "only way".

1. Palestinians are fighting to liberate their homeland from 75 years of Israeli oppression and terrorism

a) It is Jews homeland too.
b) You cannot "liberate" a country that never existed
c) Palestinian opression is 50 x worse against their OWN people
d) I don't think they're in any position to complain about "terrorism".
e) If they wanted peace they have been offered it many times

1. The Israel military and settlers are the "militants" NOT the Palestinian freedom fighters

The Israeli settlers are in the west bank, ruled by Fatah. These attacks were done by Hamas who rule Gaza where there are no settlements. Also, settlers were not attacked. Innocent civilians including children and the elderly were targeted.

1. Armed struggle is legitimate under international law

But seemingly only in one direction! Regardless, this is not "armed struggle", it is attacks on civilians on foreign territory, which is prohibited under Internation al Humanitarian Law (check article 51(2) of additional protocol I to the Geneva convention which says: "Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population are prohibited."

1. Israel has been abducting Palestinians for many years. Over 1,000 Palestinians are currently being held in 'administrative detention' in Israeli dungeons.

Firstly, most of those are being held for being in Israel illegally with the intent to murder Israelis. Or, for acts of terrorism. The actual figure is just over 300 I think. If they stopped trying to kill Israeli's they might end up in prison less often.

Palestine has also been abducting and holding Palestinians for years. They do this to THEIR OWN people. It's reported by Amnesty via NGOs every year. Forced disappearances, arbitrary detentions, no trials. No one can give you numbers because they don't have rule of law.

Yes, I noted you are biased!

Eastern Poland, many civilians were murdered for soviet land and west Ukraine used to be the east part of Poland.

Israel has long been occupied by both Palestinians and Jews (and others).

Britain took the area from Turkish control in WWI, and had a mandate until 1948. At that time, 20% of the area’s population was Jewish.

After WWII, it was agreed the Jewish people deserved statehood, and a nation should be created in the area we now know as Israel.

Britain didn’t want to decide how the land was apportioned, and handed that decision to the UN, which created the lands we now know as Israel and Palestine.

Israel was always intended to be a “two state solution”. However, anti-Semitic sentiment is held by many Muslims (I have Muslim family members, and they make jokes about Hitler having the right idea, before anyone wants to tell me I’m wrong. Obviously not all Muslims are anti-Semitic, but it’s not unusual). So Palestine’s dissatisfaction is not just about the nation of Israel geographically, but about Jewish people being given statehood. The Palestinians were never going to cooperate with a two state solution.

It is not surprising, given the horrors of the Holocaust, that Israel reacts strongly to any challenge or perceived threat to its existence.

I think most people think this too. Which is why America is still supporting Israel. The minute they withdraw Israel and all the people living within it will be destroyed. Jews will not be able to live peacefully among Muslims because they cannot live peacefully in any other country in the ME. They will be killed unless they can escape to the West. I wonder how many in the West will welcome them with open arms as victims of persecution?

@AhNowTed

Under what regime, the current Netanyahu government, or Rabin who reached an agreement with the Palestinians, and was then assassinated by an Israeli?

Err...

An agreement on the first stage of Palestinian self-rule was signed. the IDF withdrew from Jericho as per the agreement and the PLO took control. In response there was a spate of terrorist attacks by Palestinians who didn't want peace. they limped along briefly but ultimately terrorism escalated and then followed the second Intifada.

Had Palestinians wanted to go ahead with the peace agreement, they could have done so with out without Rabin. They chose not to.

Why don't you do some research

Back to the drawing board @saymynamesaymy

I wouldn't see it as a matter of America choosing to stop supporting them or withdrawing, although things could get so bad domestically in the US that public sentiment turns, if only for monetary reasons. But it's more that America is a failing empire and Israel can't survive the world that's coming. Mass evacuation to the US would be their best outcome.

It's an absolute minefield this issue (this thread has been quite civilised though).

As an example of how difficult it is to approach it with a balanced viewpoint all the Israeli/Palestinian related articles on Wikipedia are all blue locked meaning only more experienced editors can edit them.

We can definitely call out this weekend's atrocity committed by Hamas while also putting it in context of the overall history of this long-running conflict. You can do both, rather than just pick out one.

Having lived during the last few years of the Troubles in Northern Ireland one thing that is certain is that in any similar-ish conflict its never just about one side. And "who is more culpable" is futile as it doesn't achieve anything: it's also subjective as it depends who you ask.

To give another example of how tricky it is to stay balanced on a contentious issue, the last few weeks "Zombie" has been sung by Irish Rugby fans after games at the Rugby World Cup. This song is controversial among some/many nationalists here as its deemed to be one sided in that the songwriter wrote it about one atrocity committed by the IRA as opposed to a writing a song about the atrocities committed by both sides (a lesser issue is that she, being from the south of Ireland thus largely unaffected directly by the Troubles in the north, had no place singing about a subject that was essentially foreign to her). Besides the issue of balance it is a good song about the madness of killing each other (and in Ireland, as it is in Israel/Palestine etc, its over a bit of land.). So in that spirit here is a great cover of "Zombie" by Bad Wolves which has racked up half a billion views:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaS93WMRQQ&pp=ygUGWm9tYmll

Totally and utterly heartbreaking. All those young people at that music festival and that video of that poor young woman being dragged away.

Its such a massively shit situation for anyone who is living in that region.

If I were to cunningly fashion a tin foil hat, one thing I might say is that countries who were sympathetic to another country in another conflict, might be less generous in sharing their warmongering goodies as a result of what has happened here. It could also be described as politically useful to the current incumbents of one of the countries involved. I am probably giving both far too much credit though, its probably a case of Hanlon's razor ?