To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

The left is generally environmentalist, usually dogmatically so (at least when it suits the narrative). So they believe, as demonstrated by many on here, that any negative behaviour by the oppressed/exploited group is the inevitable result of the environment created by the exploiter/oppressor class. The mainstream left also fundamentally doesn't understand religion. It views it as merely a tool used by the capitalist class/imperialists to divide, distract, and rule the working class/oppressed groups. They're atheists who genuinely can't understand actual religious faith. There's a lot going on there and none of it is sane.

It's impossible to set the world back to how it was 2000-3000 years ago. For a start, how do you assign people to a particular ethnic group so you can tell them where they're allowed to live? I think I'd end up in either Scandinavia or Germany.

I think it doesn't matter so I have no intention of wasting time considering it. Israel won't survive the impending end of the American empire. Moral rights and wrongs will be irrelevant.

@AhNowTed

I already answered. What would be fair is exactly what I described!

Within the parameters of today, I couldn't give a monkeys. My family lost their home and land five times I don't live my life on a "who's land belongs to who" because that is not the world I have experienced. I don't think it even matters. Certainly my family were able to move time after time and provided they now have a home they feel safe in and can build a life that is the important thing.

They must accept the presence of Israel and leave them alone. If they want to keep fighting for it's right to exist they will be fighting forever because Israel isn't going anywhere and neither should it.

and your sources to backup your assertations ?

The majority of people are not of mixed ethnicity and their self-reported ethnicity corresponds perfectly with their genetic ancestry. This is never going to happen though, fortunately, so it's irrelevant.

@Pollyputhekettleon

The left is generally environmentalist, usually dogmatically so (at least when it suits the narrative). So they believe, as demonstrated by many on here, that any negative behaviour by the oppressed/exploited group is the inevitable result of the environment created by the exploiter/oppressor class. The mainstream left also fundamentally doesn't understand religion. It views it as merely a tool used by the capitalist class/imperialists to divide, distract, and rule the working class/oppressed groups. They're atheists who genuinely can't understand actual religious faith. There's a lot going on there and none of it is sane

Perfectly, perfectly put!

Really? You think that's how this works? No.

@NotTerfNorCis

It's impossible to set the world back to how it was 2000-3000 years ago. For a start, how do you assign people to a particular ethnic group so you can tell them where they're allowed to live? I think I'd end up in either Scandinavia or Germany

Of course it's ridiculous to rewind the world. The point I was trying to make is that there is no "fair". What would be fair is is humans had never behaved like such murderous pricks in the first place. I have absolutely no interest in who's land was who's in 1946. It's not anymore, and that's just the facts of it.

If people got along and behaved kindly to one another and naturally respected different cultures and instinctively then people wouldn't need to fight over land, but as long as they don't - minorities need to have safe spaces to live and exist.

@LemonyTicket thank you very much for such a detailed response. I had somehow absorbed quite a one-dimensional picture of the only major issues in these areas being caused by Israel.

So your answer is Zero.

You don't believe in a 2 state solution, or Palestinian self-determination.

Why didn't you say so.

Would have saved me ages.

at university any augment's or debate points that we make have to be backed up with various sources that give credibility to the argument or debate points being made, other wise its basically an assumption and or guess of what may happen.

Just my tuppence worth - from an older perspective and one of the few things that DM and I agreed on - that neither of us could understand how Jewish Israelis could find subjugating another people (by force) so acceptable; specifically relating to the Holocaust, which left a great impact on many, many millions of people for at least two generations - not the serious direct impacts undergone by the European Jews under the Nazis - but how the rest of Western Civilisations thought about the 'horrors' that a 'civilized' society and their people could let happen.

Never to be repeated - but yet......

and unless you have access to security services and other related files then other wise it does seem quite a leap of presumption you have made

Israel has been invaded by anti-semitic islamist murderers. Anyone making excuses for Hamas are either profoundly confused or sick in the head.

Firstly, the people who run these surveys were not born yesterday and are perfectly capable of getting accurate responses.

Secondly. this is Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon. I'm not sure what 'armed militants' you think are listening in ready to beat them up if they say the wrong thing. I know that it's difficult to grasp that large numbers of people really do believe things you find abhorrent, but please try. Read the entire link I gave you. You might understand it more easily if you ponder what the trans activists who'd have you sent to the gulag are like. They're not fanatics because a gun is being held to their heads. Humans are frequently not a particularly pleasant species.

... at university

This is a Mumsnet board. It isn't university. Feel free to cite. Don't demand others must and dismiss them because '... at university'. You are giving homework.

How bizarre. I expect what I said to be upsetting for many people and I do understand that and sympathize, but this is a really odd way to respond you know.

fair point but considering the quite the presumption they made about America, thats quite a leap without any credible sources to show how they concluded it.

im focusing on the point you made about América. and that part only.

@AhNowTed

So your answer is Zero

No it isn't - you have repeatedly asked me how much land Palestinians should get. What a dumb question. I don't give a monkeys "how much" land Palestinians get OR how much land Jews get.

That doesn't mean I think either one should get zero, does it? Stop putting words in my mouth to try and make a silly point fgs.

You don't believe in a 2 state solution, or Palestinian self-determination

Again, something you have just invented out of nowhere. But you miss the point that whether I "believe" in a two state solution is irrelevant. What matters is what solution PALESTINIANS want, and by all accounts that is "wipe Israel off the map". If it wasn't there would actually be a two state solution - wouldn't there?

besides, when did anyone say im normal ?

What I dont understand about the Western Left ( and I consider myself Centre Left) is that Islamic extremists are Far right. As far right as you can go. They believe in everything the European Far Right believe. The superiority of one race/religion over another, ultra nationalism, women's place being in the home, bringing up good citizens, holy war, intolerance to gays, jews etc. Why are they allied to these people?

Jewish people want to live in Israel. I personally have family there. Jews have been trying to migrate to live there even before world war 2 when it was the British mandate of Palestine though of course the level of activity intensified after the holocaust as many Jewish people felt that they would only be safest in a jewish country in the long term.

And of course when Jewish people were expelled from Arab countries, most had nowhere else to go ..russian Jewish people- can't really blame them from trying to escape Boris Yeltsin's Russia and now Putin's Russia.

So now they are there, there is a need to defend themselves..Jewish nationalism is a long standing movement. Its not something I would personally choose for myself (partially because I don't want to sacrifice DH in war and I know for a fact that if DH was living in Israel now like his siblings, he would be signing up to fight even if he wasn't conscripted and would probably die at the hands of a Hamas terrorist)... DH is an atheist Jew btw so it doesn't have to do with religion. It has to do with community and defending your country.

but other Jewish people think very differently and they are far greater in number than me.

@SomeCatFromJapan

Thanks a lot for posting. I think most people naturally have one dimensional views of most global issues and right now Israel is a global baddie. In fairness they do a lot of terrible things and I personally don't know any Jews who support the current Israeli government. It often gets lost in that though that the "oppressed" are not innocent victims and they themselves commit horrendous atrocities and oppress their own people to a far worse extent.