@AhNowTed
But not once, on this thread or the previous, have you expressed the appreciation that other folks lived there too (in fact all you’ve said is “we were there first”), and what it must be like for an ordinary Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank to live under this far-right Israeli occupation, on top of their own fanatics. Not once
Err, to quote, err, ME, on the post from ME you are actually quoting:
Islam did not exist as a concept until a thousand years later, and once it did, there was an Ottoman takeover of the area known as Israel and "Islam" because the dominant religion. Many Arabs moved from Syria, Jordan, Saudi, up to the Jewish lands of Israel. So it became very much "Muslim" or "Arab" due to this - but wasn't originally
So fairly clearly said it was majority Muslim at that time, it did not however start that way. So this "it's their land" stuff is obviously just garbage. Jews were there first. That is a simple fact. Seemingly some people put a stature of limitations on this issue, but at the end of the day they have just as much right to be there as Arabs do.
I also stated outright hundreds of thousands fled their homes or were expelled, which would indicate quite clearly that I appreciate people were there. It is, however, tough. Like I said, more Jews were expelled from their homes and they had to suck it up and get on with life and accepted their new homes. Everyone has to accept it and build a life where they now live. Same applies to Jews.
The British couldn’t be arsed, and nobody gave a fuck about the million Arabs already living there
No, likewise no one GAF about the millions of Jews and where they were living or the homes they lost. Life isn't fair. It happened to my family too, several times. I am not shooting anyone or demanding "my land" back decades later or kidnapping babies and so on. I am not hating anyone, I am just accepting that what is, is.
This is disingenuous, in the same way that black Americans have the same rights as whites. Their day to day lives however are very different. They are 3 times poorer, face structural discrimination, and are under-represented politically
No it's not. It's a fact that they have equal rights under law, and certainly far more rights than they'd have if they lived in Palestine - which is why 2 million of them choose to live there and many more are trying to. It is still a fact that Black Americans have the same rights as White Americans. Experiencing racism and discrimination is a completely different issue to not having equal rights in law.
Whatever they say, there are almost 2 million Arabs living in Palestine and they are afforded the same rights as Jews.(Again, afforded, but their day to day lives are very different – why else would my Arab taxi driver wear a skullcap or he’d be stopped multiple times a day)
Tell him to go to Libya and walk around in a Kippur and report back. Yes, racism exists on both sides, but you are the one being disingenuous. I met a lovely woman from Libya who was captured by the Taliban and beaten and gang raped for protesting for women's rights. She lives nearby me now and we often meet for coffee and we are both Arab. She told me the first thing the Taliban asked her was if the journalists she had communicated with were "Jews". Jews are hated by these extremist groups. They want to kill us!
And Israel needs to stop with the rhetoric of being the only democracy in the region like that’s some sort of justification - their government is fanatical right-wing
It is not "rhetoric. It is a fact. Human rights as we appreciate them to be universally are:
Right to equality and for all people to be treated as equal by law (gay, women etc)
Right to freedom from discrimination
Right to freedom from slavery
Right to freedom from torture or degrading treatment
Right to recognition as a person under the law
Right to free and public trial
Right to freedom from arbitrary arrest
Right to innocence until proven guilty
Right to privacy and a family life of your choosing
Right to assembly and protest
Right to free and fair elections
Right to own property
Right to freedom of religion
Right to education
Etc.
Citizens of Palestine have none of these rights reliably. None. Citizens of Israel have 80% reliably and 20% a bit iffily. They are the only functioning democracy in the region and anyone who claims to care about liberty and justice cannot ignore that in making their arguments. You can't say you want to "free Palestine" if that you really mean is to free them to being oppressed, murdered and stripped of all human rights - because I assure you, Arab Israelis do not want Hamas to take over!!!!
There are 26 Muslim majority countries and most also have almost none of these rights. Some have a few - most do not. This isn't a pissing contest, this is factual. They have developed, for complex reasons, ideologies and cultures which are at odds with Western concepts of "human rights". I am from the middle east. I am an Arab myself. I have lived in "liberal" Muslim countries. I still didn't have most of those rights.
And if people want to live like that - it's up to them. Go for it. What it does mean however is that people who choose not to want to live in a place where they have no freedom of religion, no laws against discrimination, no freedom from being randomly arrested and tortured or denied a trial or generally denied their humanity because they happen to be Jewish - then it's entirely reasonable they have their own state.
Any person who wants to live a devout Muslim life in Israel can do it. People are free largely to choose what they want to do. If the entire region were a democracy with human rights in place and rule of law that encompassed the universal concepts of human rights then people would be able to live side by side in peace - the only reason we can do it here is because we have it enshrined into our law and culture.
And Israel as a whole needs to recognise that Arabs have a much right to live there as they do
They do, that's why 2 million of them do live there. The reason they won't accept "right of return" to several hundred thousand Arabs is because if they did that it would put Jews in danger. Because their democracy would no longer provide an effective safe haven for Jews to live safely. Because, put simply, it would be a "majority" Arab country (just like every single other one in the region) and they would likely vote in rule which disposed on the Jewish system and discriminated against Jews.
I am not guessing at that - I am basing it on a couple of thousand years history as well as the real life picture in all other Muslim countries. The idea Hamas or their ilk would take over and everyone would live happily seems beyond naive. It would likely be slaughter and possibly another civil war with millions dead. I can't wrap my head at all around people who think this would work.
I do agree Israel should get the hell out of occupied territories, but I sadly think even if they did the violence would continue as it always has.
OP nobody begrudges a safe place for Jews to live. Nobody
Hamas do. And all their supporters. They're pretty clear about that.
I think the problem with Western people is that they try to defacto impose their western values and culture onto others. They have an idea in their mind that Palestinians want "equality". have you asked them about this? The surveys I have seen say they are most interested in being impoverished. And they'd like to have jobs and food and safety. The stats also show they largely support Hamas and quite a lot don't want Israel to exist at all.
You can't make these assumptions based on a Westernised view. They need a free election to say what they want. They don't need us to speak for them.