To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

The version of it I've read, at least in the original Hamas charter, is "drive Israel into the sea". Which is a pretty key difference.

Jewish minorities have lived in middle eastern countries since Islam has existed, and been treated no worse than they were in Europe (which isn't saying much).

Pretty much all conflict is about..

wealth (I’m keeping what’s mine v. I deserve a share)

and

power (leave it to me, I know what I’m doing v. I could do better but nobody listens to me)

and

fear (you can only trust your own tribe v. we’re fundamentally all human)

Religion feeds into all these, but it’s not about religion.

@LemonyTicket

I've cut down your post and added my comments.

As we neared into the 1930s and 1940s - antisemitism was almost global. The sentiments of the Nazis were shared across Europe of Jews as greedy, horrible, vile people and in the Arab world Nazi ideology spready very well. In some cases prominent Muslims became open Hitler supporters and Arabs were declared allies by Hitler in their joint mission to obliterate Jews.

Many Muslim countries then started sharing Nazi / anti Jewish propaganda, so even the Jews living outside Europe more or less lived in varying degrees of subjugation and terror, so the ideology of a "Jewish nation" started to take hold.

The idea was to have a Jewish nation where Jews could own and work their own land and live in peace with equal status - in the land that was originally their home. However, this was a very poorly received idea for a long time. Until the Holocaust.

Almost a million Arabs lived in Israel before WW2.

That scared the shit out of many Jews (naturally!) particularly as they had faced similar pogrums and persecution in their Middle Eastern homes (such as the Iraq Farhad of 1941) so what began as a piper dream became reality.

The British signed over the land - with approval of the UN - and Israel existed from then on. Why they did that I can't say - maybe they felt it was right, or they felt guilty over the holocaust. But being a cynic I think it was also likely they wanted a strategic ally in the region and also - worse - frankly nobody fucking wanted the millions for Jewish refugees!

The British couldn’t be arsed, and nobody gave a fuck about the million Arabs already living there.

There was a big fight (several actually) as the Arab population wouldn't accept it. About 300k Arabs either fled or left the area and they continue to fight to get the land "back" and have not accepted any of numerous peace offerings. Their leadership have declared they will only accept Israel being removed completely as a state.

Actually, 700,000 were expelled or fled. Some tried to return and many of them were murdered.

Currently Gaza (one Palestinian area) is led by Hamas. They were elected in 2006 and have not had elections since. They are an extremist Islamic regime who have outright called for death to all Jews. They are supported and backed by Iran and also Hezbollah in Lebanon who all want Israel gone.

Not to be confused with ordinary Palestinians, who for the most part just want a peaceful life.

Why? Seemingly they believe the whole area must be Muslim and Arab and they do not want a Western democracy in the area. Despite many, many, many failings of Israel who currently have a very, very right wing awful government - Israel is also a functioning democracy with equal rights for Arabs, and fairly good human right for most people. Certainly the best anywhere in the region has.

This is disingenuous, in the same way that black Americans have the same rights as whites. Their day to day lives however are very different. They are 3 times poorer, face structural discrimination, and are under-represented politically.

Whatever they say, there are almost 2 million Arabs living in Palestine and they are afforded the same rights as Jews. (Again, afforded, but their day to day lives are very different – why else would my Arab taxi driver wear a skullcap or he’d be stopped multiple times a day). However, Jews were obliterated from everywhere else in the Arab world and with the rise of Islamic extremist governments in many countries like Syria, Libya and Iran - this has become a war against the west. Yes they were, noone suggests otherwise.

America and the UK will always support Israel because this is a defacto war against Islamic extremist and this is an ally in the region. (America will always support Israel because of its strategic position in the ME, and the Jewish vote in the US) Unpleasant reasoning, but IMHO this is a fight of Muslims against the West. Israel's shit government have been moving their settlements into the legally Palestinian zones and internationally everyone has turned a blind eye to this blatant illegal activity. (I’m glad you recognise that, but let’s be clear, they are not ‘moving their settlements’, they are bulldozing Palestinians out of their homes and off their ever decreasing land).

By turn, Hamas have engaged in pretty horrendous acts of terror - using kids as suicide bombers etc. Which personally I think there is never an excuse for.

That said!

Yes, some Arabs (around 300k) (again 700K) lost their land and homes 70 years ago but so did a million Jews around the Arab world. So for there to be peace, people need to accept everyone has a right to be there and NO ONE on either side is "getting their grandparents land back". AGREED.

They also have to accept Hamas are Islamic extremists - they do not want to share or have equal rights. They are similar to ISIS or the Taliban. They want Jihad and to wipe Jews and American off the face of the planet. So AFAIK there isn't going to be peace in a hurry unless both sides have a change of leadership and change of attitude.

The issue has really become a test case for the unfortunate reality that as lovely as Muslims are - they extremist Islamic regimes who believe in oppression and despise Western values are simply not willing to live multiculturally - so either they are allowed to dominate the region completely and murder at will anyone who objects - OR - people have to decide there is no "freedom" for Palestinians that doesn't include human rights and equal right to a homeland for all people of the middle east. Including Jews, women, gays and everyone else who is systematically murdered by these folks!

And Israel needs to stop with the rhetoric of being the only democracy in the region like that’s some sort of justification - their government is fanatical right-wing.

And Israel as a whole needs to recognise that Arabs have a much right to live there as they do, stop bulldozing their homes and villages, and give them a fair distribution of land, with access to water and resources.

OP nobody begrudges a safe place for Jews to live. Nobody.

But not once, on this thread or the previous, have you expressed the appreciation that other folks lived there too (in fact all you’ve said is “we were there first”), and what it must be like for an ordinary Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank to live under this far-right Israeli occupation, on top of their own fanatics. Not once.

You know full well I'm talking about the average Palestinian living under the regime of a far-right Israeli occupying government.

The argument that "Hamas is worse" is NO excuse for the shabby treatment of these people.

The version of it I've read, at least in the original Hamas charter, is "drive Israel into the sea". Which is a pretty key difference.

What's the difference, how do you drive land into the sea but not people?

No, that's not correct. The relevant wording refers quite explicitly to Jews NOT Israel.

It states: “Our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by …the Arab and Islamic world.”

The Charter quotes the Prophet Mohammed: “Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees…’”

It's really not ambiguous.

Maybe you're confusing it with the popular slogan, 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free'? Which is also genocidal in intention, but goes down better with those more bashful about overt Jew-hatred?

So why were my grandparents ethnically cleansed from Hebron, narrowly escaping the massacre, in 1929?
It did not start in 1948.

"The jews" doesn't refer specifically to the citizens of Israel, it includes jews in other countries. Not all jews are Israelis (and not all Israelis are jews). "Jew" is a religious and racial identity. "Israel" is a political entity. The phrase expresses opposition to that political identity, that's all.

I think it's pretty obvious that they're not talking about literally getting a bunch of bulldozers and pushing the soil of Israel into the sea, so the distinction between the country and its inhabitants is spurious. They're talking about making the country cease to exist. Its current inhabitants would then belong to whatever political entity took its place.

They're talking about making the country cease to exist. Its current inhabitants would then belong to whatever political entity took its place.

And that what be positive for the current inhabitants?

Would be

The entire region (far beyond Israel and Palestine) has been at war or in conflict on and off since civilization began. Empires have occupied other territories and committed atrocities of war since the recording of people began. Even the religous texts are full of war and carnage.

And for many of the originating people they even have had major conflicts within their own tribes or tribal egroups. They resolved things with violence.

I was recently in Georgia and war and occupation is simply etched into their DNA. It was very interesting as the perspective is very different when war is part of every era of your history and part of (almost) every generation's existence, and has been that way for 3000 plus years.

Given a non war answer hasn't been found to settle these disputes since the beginning of civilization, and we still have wars and squirmishes throughout most of the world, I am not sure there is any solution. Torture, atrocities, and death are how civilizations have dealt with major differences for thousands of years. The desire for power, control, vengeance and victory runs too deep for any other approach.

No, that's not correct. The relevant wording refers quite explicitly to Jews NOT Israel.

It states: “Our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by …the Arab and Islamic world.”

That's not the part referred to though - there's something specifically about pushing into the sea, though I can't find it now.

But just to be clear and avoid an unnecessary argument: I'm certainly not denying the horrendous current of antisemitism that runs throughout the document. It's most definitely based on a vision of Islam as the faith entitled by Allah to rule the region and jews as second class citizens. But the project it describes is not one of genocide of the jews; it's the removal of their political supremacy via the state of Israel.

Just because religion or ideology doesn't motivate you to do things doesn't mean it doesn't motivate other people. Not everyone is like you.

@AhNowTed

But not once, on this thread or the previous, have you expressed the appreciation that other folks lived there too (in fact all you’ve said is “we were there first”), and what it must be like for an ordinary Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank to live under this far-right Israeli occupation, on top of their own fanatics. Not once

Err, to quote, err, ME, on the post from ME you are actually quoting:

Islam did not exist as a concept until a thousand years later, and once it did, there was an Ottoman takeover of the area known as Israel and "Islam" because the dominant religion. Many Arabs moved from Syria, Jordan, Saudi, up to the Jewish lands of Israel. So it became very much "Muslim" or "Arab" due to this - but wasn't originally

So fairly clearly said it was majority Muslim at that time, it did not however start that way. So this "it's their land" stuff is obviously just garbage. Jews were there first. That is a simple fact. Seemingly some people put a stature of limitations on this issue, but at the end of the day they have just as much right to be there as Arabs do.

I also stated outright hundreds of thousands fled their homes or were expelled, which would indicate quite clearly that I appreciate people were there. It is, however, tough. Like I said, more Jews were expelled from their homes and they had to suck it up and get on with life and accepted their new homes. Everyone has to accept it and build a life where they now live. Same applies to Jews.

The British couldn’t be arsed, and nobody gave a fuck about the million Arabs already living there

No, likewise no one GAF about the millions of Jews and where they were living or the homes they lost. Life isn't fair. It happened to my family too, several times. I am not shooting anyone or demanding "my land" back decades later or kidnapping babies and so on. I am not hating anyone, I am just accepting that what is, is.

This is disingenuous, in the same way that black Americans have the same rights as whites. Their day to day lives however are very different. They are 3 times poorer, face structural discrimination, and are under-represented politically

No it's not. It's a fact that they have equal rights under law, and certainly far more rights than they'd have if they lived in Palestine - which is why 2 million of them choose to live there and many more are trying to. It is still a fact that Black Americans have the same rights as White Americans. Experiencing racism and discrimination is a completely different issue to not having equal rights in law.

Whatever they say, there are almost 2 million Arabs living in Palestine and they are afforded the same rights as Jews.(Again, afforded, but their day to day lives are very different – why else would my Arab taxi driver wear a skullcap or he’d be stopped multiple times a day)

Tell him to go to Libya and walk around in a Kippur and report back. Yes, racism exists on both sides, but you are the one being disingenuous. I met a lovely woman from Libya who was captured by the Taliban and beaten and gang raped for protesting for women's rights. She lives nearby me now and we often meet for coffee and we are both Arab. She told me the first thing the Taliban asked her was if the journalists she had communicated with were "Jews". Jews are hated by these extremist groups. They want to kill us!

And Israel needs to stop with the rhetoric of being the only democracy in the region like that’s some sort of justification - their government is fanatical right-wing

It is not "rhetoric. It is a fact. Human rights as we appreciate them to be universally are:

Right to equality and for all people to be treated as equal by law (gay, women etc)
Right to freedom from discrimination
Right to freedom from slavery
Right to freedom from torture or degrading treatment
Right to recognition as a person under the law
Right to free and public trial
Right to freedom from arbitrary arrest
Right to innocence until proven guilty
Right to privacy and a family life of your choosing
Right to assembly and protest
Right to free and fair elections
Right to own property
Right to freedom of religion
Right to education

Etc.

Citizens of Palestine have none of these rights reliably. None. Citizens of Israel have 80% reliably and 20% a bit iffily. They are the only functioning democracy in the region and anyone who claims to care about liberty and justice cannot ignore that in making their arguments. You can't say you want to "free Palestine" if that you really mean is to free them to being oppressed, murdered and stripped of all human rights - because I assure you, Arab Israelis do not want Hamas to take over!!!!

There are 26 Muslim majority countries and most also have almost none of these rights. Some have a few - most do not. This isn't a pissing contest, this is factual. They have developed, for complex reasons, ideologies and cultures which are at odds with Western concepts of "human rights". I am from the middle east. I am an Arab myself. I have lived in "liberal" Muslim countries. I still didn't have most of those rights.

And if people want to live like that - it's up to them. Go for it. What it does mean however is that people who choose not to want to live in a place where they have no freedom of religion, no laws against discrimination, no freedom from being randomly arrested and tortured or denied a trial or generally denied their humanity because they happen to be Jewish - then it's entirely reasonable they have their own state.

Any person who wants to live a devout Muslim life in Israel can do it. People are free largely to choose what they want to do. If the entire region were a democracy with human rights in place and rule of law that encompassed the universal concepts of human rights then people would be able to live side by side in peace - the only reason we can do it here is because we have it enshrined into our law and culture.

And Israel as a whole needs to recognise that Arabs have a much right to live there as they do

They do, that's why 2 million of them do live there. The reason they won't accept "right of return" to several hundred thousand Arabs is because if they did that it would put Jews in danger. Because their democracy would no longer provide an effective safe haven for Jews to live safely. Because, put simply, it would be a "majority" Arab country (just like every single other one in the region) and they would likely vote in rule which disposed on the Jewish system and discriminated against Jews.

I am not guessing at that - I am basing it on a couple of thousand years history as well as the real life picture in all other Muslim countries. The idea Hamas or their ilk would take over and everyone would live happily seems beyond naive. It would likely be slaughter and possibly another civil war with millions dead. I can't wrap my head at all around people who think this would work.

I do agree Israel should get the hell out of occupied territories, but I sadly think even if they did the violence would continue as it always has.

OP nobody begrudges a safe place for Jews to live. Nobody

Hamas do. And all their supporters. They're pretty clear about that.

I think the problem with Western people is that they try to defacto impose their western values and culture onto others. They have an idea in their mind that Palestinians want "equality". have you asked them about this? The surveys I have seen say they are most interested in being impoverished. And they'd like to have jobs and food and safety. The stats also show they largely support Hamas and quite a lot don't want Israel to exist at all.

You can't make these assumptions based on a Westernised view. They need a free election to say what they want. They don't need us to speak for them.

The original charter says:

'...the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).'

That's not the removal of Jewish political supremacy or the state of Israel - neither of which of course existed when that verse was written.

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988 (yale.edu)

@AhNowTed

You know full well I'm talking about the average Palestinian living under the regime of a far-right Israeli occupying government

I've got no idea what makes you believe the "average" Palestinian is wanting civil rights and westernised ideals. Have you got any data to indicate the average Palestinian wants that? The last data I saw (albeit a bit old) said something like 60+ % did not support any peace agreement and wanted Israel gone.

I have been critical of the State of Israel's treatment of Palestinians for many years but I'm still absolutely shocked at the justification of so many on the left of the slaughter and brutalisation of civilians. It's never okay. What woman, especially, could see the footage of Shani Louk and feel anything other than revulsion?

It's opened my eyes to the fact that Hamas is one of the major barriers to the safety and future of the Palestinian people. For years I gave them a massive pass compared to Netanyahu as I viewed them as the underdog. I now feel that I was naive and patronising.

Yes, in Northern Ireland there are frequently Israel flags flying in loyalist areas and Palestine flags in nationalist areas.

seems the other thread got pulled,

So much support for Hamas on Twitter. So depressing.

The reason for the alliances between Palestinians and Irish republicans, and Israel and loyalists, is that the modern incarnations of republicans and loyalists stem from 1960's global left wing anti-colonial movements. Irish republicans from the 1960's on modelled themselves on the US civil rights movement. This is why they identified not only with Palestinians but with any group claiming to oppose colonialism, from Basque separatists to Algerian jihadists. Loyalists then just picked the opposite side because obviously they would. It's not because the situation in northern Ireland is actually the same as all of these other places. It's only the same through the 'unique' lens of 1960's leftist ideology.

@AhNowTed "OP nobody begrudges a safe place for Jews to live. Nobody"

Bull.shit.

How you can seriously say that is beyond me. It's ludicrous and quite clearly not true.

I don't think anyone can say much about what the average Palestinian person wants. Polls like that mean nothing. I live in a safe western democracy with little threat to my safety. Yet I literally feel too scared to say, in my own name, that there are only two sexes. Experiencing this stupidity here makes it very clear that people living in a society controlled by Hamas will say whatever they feel they have to say to not end up on the wrong side of them. Especially the women. Most people just want to be left alone to live the best life available to them.

But the project it describes is not one of genocide of the jews; it's the removal of their political supremacy via the state of Israel.

No, that's simply not the case.

It's clearly and overtly genocidal towards all Jews in intent - see the bits I quoted upthread.

They may not want western ideals, but I'm pretty sure they want freedom of movement without an Israeli checkpoint and a soldier pointing a gun at them, and for their homes not to be bulldozed and ever-decreasing lands stolen, all with the OK of the government.

Not much to ask.