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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

1000 replies

theotherfossilsister · 07/10/2023 19:48

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

OP posts:
Thread gallery
44
babysharkdoodoodedoodedoo · 08/10/2023 14:28

Hummingbird233 · 07/10/2023 19:55

If any other country attacked another, people would be calling that country out.

Palestinians attack Israel, killing and hurting mass people - "it's sad on both sides".

WTF. Let's call this as it is. It's atrocious that Hamas, a terrorist organisation, gets to bomb civilians and hide behind a long standing conflict. What they've done is awful.

100%

NorthStarRising · 08/10/2023 14:31

Why is the border with Egypt closed?
Shouldn’t they open it to refugees and supplies?

AhNowTed · 08/10/2023 14:33

@Angrycat2768

I don't think it's that. Kneejerk anti-US by wealthy lefties is just another trope.

For me is a simple human rights issue.

Nothing antisemitic about it.

Sadly both sides are lead by fanatics, and I don't see an end any time soon.

etmoietmoietmoi · 08/10/2023 14:37

@NorthStarRising I may be wrong but think it's so Iranian influence and weapons via Hamas are kept out of Egypt.

etmoietmoietmoi · 08/10/2023 14:38

@NorthStarRising And yes, they absolutely should open a humanitarian corridor at the border.

AhNowTed · 08/10/2023 14:42

@Martin83

The same should be said for the Netanyahu government. They are totally uninterested in any peace, or giving the Palestinians a fair deal.

Totally and utterly uninterested.

NorthStarRising · 08/10/2023 14:47

‘The holocaust is very very relevant. Its why Israel is so defensive to begin with and partly why the west will never tell Israel they are wrong for their own terrorism against Palestine.’

The Jews have been persecuted and homeless for a lot longer than that.
Edward 1 had them banned from England, Ferdinand and Isabella expelled them from Spain. Not an excuse, but a partial explanation for why Israel feels that they are the only nation that prioritises the safety of Jews.
I was a teenager in the UK when Entebbe unfolded, and I remember how my Jewish friends reacted.

AhNowTed · 08/10/2023 14:52

etmoietmoietmoi · 08/10/2023 14:37

@NorthStarRising I may be wrong but think it's so Iranian influence and weapons via Hamas are kept out of Egypt.

Also to appease the US and Israel.

They're "not getting involved".

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 15:02

@saymynamesaymy

I'm going to sound really stupid here and ignorant but I get so confused with this, can somebody explain to me in simple terms what the history of this is ? I know they have fought over land but I don't know how it all started ? Was Palestine its own country and Isreal came along, made a country and took their land ? Are they both Jewish ? All I know is that Jesus was born in Jerusalem, which is in Isreal isn't it?

As I am Jewish, Middle Eastern and a theological historian, I will put this into as brief terms as possible to help someone understand the full history.

Canaans were the first civilisation in the land that we currently know as Israel, with Jews popping up shortly after about 3000 years ago. Canaans died off entirely. From early on, Jews were persecuted because they had unique customs. Also most people back then believed in multiple God's and the Jews believed in only one.

The Roman empire came along, and wanted to gain control of the region. The way they did that back in those days was largely through using religion, so they more or less enforced their "Roman Gods" onto locals who adapted in fairly easily. Jews were pretty outcast because they refused to join in with these same ways of life. Many Jews were murdered, exiled or shipped to Europe as Roman Slaves. The exiled ones moved out across the Arab region - Iraqi, Libya, Syria, Iran etc.

Islam did not exist as a concept until a thousand years later, and once it did, there was an Ottoman takeover of the area known as Israel and "Islam" because the dominant religion. Many Arabs moved from Syria, Jordan, Saudi, up to the Jewish lands of Israel. So it became very much "Muslim" or "Arab" due to this - but wasn't originally, The British seized power in 1923 and at that time there was a mixed Jewish / Muslim population who both wanted it to be "their" country and the British largely played both off and promised it to both.

Anyway, back to history - Christianity spouted up by this stage Jews were basically blamed for everything both in the middle east and europe. They were repeatedly outcast, faced endless genocides and pogrums and were usually required to live as second class citizens. Generally they were not given rights to own land or do certain "prosperous" jobs - hence many turned to certain "stereotype" professions like tailoring.

Jews were more or less blamed for everything from killing Jesus to starting the plague. Much as they are still blamed for ridiculous things. Antisemitism is age old, and began thousands of years ago and extended well into the times of Hitler and so on.

Historically, Christians were not allowed to lend money for religious reasons, so Jews became "money lenders", bankers and even media people (again, acting and theatre were not considered acceptable for Christians). They after being forced into those positions, they were persecuted for them and cast as greedy and so on.

Over in the Arab world, they lived fairly precariously. Sometimes in peace for a little while but generally they were frequently kicked out of their homes, stripped of property, banned from doing certain jobs, banned from living with the regular people and so on - so life was largely miserable with a few exceptions.

As we neared into the 1930s and 1940s - antisemitism was almost global. The sentiments of the Nazis were shared across Europe of Jews as greedy, horrible, vile people and in the Arab world Nazi ideology spready very well. In some cases prominent Muslims became open Hitler supporters and Arabs were declared allies by Hitler in their joint mission to obliterate Jews.

Many Muslim countries then started sharing Nazi / anti Jewish propaganda, so even the Jews living outside Europe more or less lived in varying degrees of subjugation and terror, so the ideology of a "Jewish nation" started to take hold.

The idea was to have a Jewish nation where Jews could own and work their own land and live in peace with equal status - in the land that was originally their home. However, this was a very poorly received idea for a long time. Until the Holocaust.

That scared the shit out of many Jews, particularly as they had faced similar pogrums and persecution in their Middle Eastern homes (such as the Iraq Farhad of 1941) so what began as a piper dream became reality.

The British signed over the land - with approval of the UN - and Israel existed from then on. Why they did that I can't say - maybe they felt it was right, or they felt guilty over the holocaust. But being a cynic I think it was also likely they wanted a strategic ally in the region and also - worse - frankly nobody fucking wanted the millions for Jewish refugees!

There was a big fight (several actually) as the Arab population wouldn't accept it. About 300k Arabs either fled or left the area and they continue to fight to get the land "back" and have not accepted any of numerous peace offerings. Their leadership have declared they will only accept Israel being removed completely as a state.

Currently Gaza (one Palestinian area) is led by Hamas. They were elected in 2006 and have not had elections since. They are an extremist Islamic regime who have outright called for death to all Jews. They are supported and backed by Iran and also Hezbollah in Lebanon who all want Israel gone.

Why? Seemingly they believe the whole area must be Muslim and Arab and they do not want a Western democracy in the area. Despite many, many, many failings of Israel who currently have a very, very right wing awful government - Israel is also a functioning democracy with equal rights for Arabs, and fairly good human right for most people. Certainly the best anywhere in the region has.

Whatever they say, there are almost 2 million Arabs living in Palestine and they are afforded the same rights as Jews. However, Jews were obliterated from everywhere else in the Arab world and with the rise of Islamic extremist governments in many countries like Syria, Libya and Iran - this has become a war against the west.

America and the UK will always support Israel because this is a defacto war against Islamic extremist and this is an ally in the region. Unpleasant reasoning, but IMHO this is a fight of Muslims against the West. Israel's shit government have been moving their settlements into the legally Palestinian zones and internationally everyone has turned a blind eye to this blatant illegal activity.

By turn, Hamas have engaged in pretty horrendous acts of terror - using kids as suicide bombers etc. Which personally I think there is never an excuse for.

That said!

Yes, some Arabs (around 300k) lost their land and homes 70 years ago but so did a million Jews around the Arab world. So for there to be peace, people need to accept everyone has a right to be there and NO ONE on either side is "getting their grandparents land back".

They also have to accept Hamas are Islamic extremists - they do not want to share or have equal rights. They are similar to ISIS or the Taliban. They want Jihad and to wipe Jews and American off the face of the planet. So AFAIK there isn't going to be peace in a hurry unless both sides have a change of leadership and change of attitude.

The issue has really become a test case for the unfortunate reality that as lovely as Muslims are - they extremist Islamic regimes who believe in oppression and despise Western values are simply not willing to live multiculturally - so either they are allowed to dominate the region completely and murder at will anyone who objects - OR - people have to decide there is no "freedom" for Palestinians that doesn't include human rights and equal right to a homeland for all people of the middle east. Including Jews, women, gays and everyone else who is systematically murdered by these folks!

localnotail · 08/10/2023 15:05

Whatever I felt before regarding "its sad on both sides" kind of evaporated after I have seen several horrendous videos on telegram (I wish I didn't). I will never be able to forget these videos. I hope Israel sorts it out. x

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 15:07

Note:

"Whatever they say, there are almost 2 million Arabs living in Palestine and they are afforded the same rights as Jews. "

I meant ISRAEL 😞

Angrycat2768 · 08/10/2023 15:07

AhNowTed · 08/10/2023 14:42

@Martin83

The same should be said for the Netanyahu government. They are totally uninterested in any peace, or giving the Palestinians a fair deal.

Totally and utterly uninterested.

Agree. Neither side wants peace. They both want this to continue until they get their way. Unfortunately that means the total annihilation of the other side. No one is interested in any kind of solution, and there will not be any kind of solution until the Israeli's democratically elect a government committed to peace ( but the rational Israeli's are being overrun and outvoted by the Orthodox rightwing Jews who don't want to send their own children to war but expect to be protected by by people who are bankrolling and protecting them with the lives of their own children) and Hamas needs to stop poking the bear for their own ends and using their own people as human shields when the Israelis retaliate.

duchiebun · 08/10/2023 15:14

@LemonyTicket great post

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 15:15

@AhNowTed

The troubles started out in the late 60s as a civil rights movement, against the inequality, discrimination and lack of representation suffered by Catholics. There's strong pro-Palestinian feeling in Ireland as a result

Please tell me you are not comparing a extremist islamic regime with no human rights of any kind, not even a rule of law with which to police it if there was - with a civil rights movement protesting inequality?

As a woman, please, by all means, take a vacation to Gaza and start walking around with a placard advocating "civil rights" and then send us all a postcard to let us know how it went!

Meshigenus · 08/10/2023 15:16

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 15:02

@saymynamesaymy

I'm going to sound really stupid here and ignorant but I get so confused with this, can somebody explain to me in simple terms what the history of this is ? I know they have fought over land but I don't know how it all started ? Was Palestine its own country and Isreal came along, made a country and took their land ? Are they both Jewish ? All I know is that Jesus was born in Jerusalem, which is in Isreal isn't it?

As I am Jewish, Middle Eastern and a theological historian, I will put this into as brief terms as possible to help someone understand the full history.

Canaans were the first civilisation in the land that we currently know as Israel, with Jews popping up shortly after about 3000 years ago. Canaans died off entirely. From early on, Jews were persecuted because they had unique customs. Also most people back then believed in multiple God's and the Jews believed in only one.

The Roman empire came along, and wanted to gain control of the region. The way they did that back in those days was largely through using religion, so they more or less enforced their "Roman Gods" onto locals who adapted in fairly easily. Jews were pretty outcast because they refused to join in with these same ways of life. Many Jews were murdered, exiled or shipped to Europe as Roman Slaves. The exiled ones moved out across the Arab region - Iraqi, Libya, Syria, Iran etc.

Islam did not exist as a concept until a thousand years later, and once it did, there was an Ottoman takeover of the area known as Israel and "Islam" because the dominant religion. Many Arabs moved from Syria, Jordan, Saudi, up to the Jewish lands of Israel. So it became very much "Muslim" or "Arab" due to this - but wasn't originally, The British seized power in 1923 and at that time there was a mixed Jewish / Muslim population who both wanted it to be "their" country and the British largely played both off and promised it to both.

Anyway, back to history - Christianity spouted up by this stage Jews were basically blamed for everything both in the middle east and europe. They were repeatedly outcast, faced endless genocides and pogrums and were usually required to live as second class citizens. Generally they were not given rights to own land or do certain "prosperous" jobs - hence many turned to certain "stereotype" professions like tailoring.

Jews were more or less blamed for everything from killing Jesus to starting the plague. Much as they are still blamed for ridiculous things. Antisemitism is age old, and began thousands of years ago and extended well into the times of Hitler and so on.

Historically, Christians were not allowed to lend money for religious reasons, so Jews became "money lenders", bankers and even media people (again, acting and theatre were not considered acceptable for Christians). They after being forced into those positions, they were persecuted for them and cast as greedy and so on.

Over in the Arab world, they lived fairly precariously. Sometimes in peace for a little while but generally they were frequently kicked out of their homes, stripped of property, banned from doing certain jobs, banned from living with the regular people and so on - so life was largely miserable with a few exceptions.

As we neared into the 1930s and 1940s - antisemitism was almost global. The sentiments of the Nazis were shared across Europe of Jews as greedy, horrible, vile people and in the Arab world Nazi ideology spready very well. In some cases prominent Muslims became open Hitler supporters and Arabs were declared allies by Hitler in their joint mission to obliterate Jews.

Many Muslim countries then started sharing Nazi / anti Jewish propaganda, so even the Jews living outside Europe more or less lived in varying degrees of subjugation and terror, so the ideology of a "Jewish nation" started to take hold.

The idea was to have a Jewish nation where Jews could own and work their own land and live in peace with equal status - in the land that was originally their home. However, this was a very poorly received idea for a long time. Until the Holocaust.

That scared the shit out of many Jews, particularly as they had faced similar pogrums and persecution in their Middle Eastern homes (such as the Iraq Farhad of 1941) so what began as a piper dream became reality.

The British signed over the land - with approval of the UN - and Israel existed from then on. Why they did that I can't say - maybe they felt it was right, or they felt guilty over the holocaust. But being a cynic I think it was also likely they wanted a strategic ally in the region and also - worse - frankly nobody fucking wanted the millions for Jewish refugees!

There was a big fight (several actually) as the Arab population wouldn't accept it. About 300k Arabs either fled or left the area and they continue to fight to get the land "back" and have not accepted any of numerous peace offerings. Their leadership have declared they will only accept Israel being removed completely as a state.

Currently Gaza (one Palestinian area) is led by Hamas. They were elected in 2006 and have not had elections since. They are an extremist Islamic regime who have outright called for death to all Jews. They are supported and backed by Iran and also Hezbollah in Lebanon who all want Israel gone.

Why? Seemingly they believe the whole area must be Muslim and Arab and they do not want a Western democracy in the area. Despite many, many, many failings of Israel who currently have a very, very right wing awful government - Israel is also a functioning democracy with equal rights for Arabs, and fairly good human right for most people. Certainly the best anywhere in the region has.

Whatever they say, there are almost 2 million Arabs living in Palestine and they are afforded the same rights as Jews. However, Jews were obliterated from everywhere else in the Arab world and with the rise of Islamic extremist governments in many countries like Syria, Libya and Iran - this has become a war against the west.

America and the UK will always support Israel because this is a defacto war against Islamic extremist and this is an ally in the region. Unpleasant reasoning, but IMHO this is a fight of Muslims against the West. Israel's shit government have been moving their settlements into the legally Palestinian zones and internationally everyone has turned a blind eye to this blatant illegal activity.

By turn, Hamas have engaged in pretty horrendous acts of terror - using kids as suicide bombers etc. Which personally I think there is never an excuse for.

That said!

Yes, some Arabs (around 300k) lost their land and homes 70 years ago but so did a million Jews around the Arab world. So for there to be peace, people need to accept everyone has a right to be there and NO ONE on either side is "getting their grandparents land back".

They also have to accept Hamas are Islamic extremists - they do not want to share or have equal rights. They are similar to ISIS or the Taliban. They want Jihad and to wipe Jews and American off the face of the planet. So AFAIK there isn't going to be peace in a hurry unless both sides have a change of leadership and change of attitude.

The issue has really become a test case for the unfortunate reality that as lovely as Muslims are - they extremist Islamic regimes who believe in oppression and despise Western values are simply not willing to live multiculturally - so either they are allowed to dominate the region completely and murder at will anyone who objects - OR - people have to decide there is no "freedom" for Palestinians that doesn't include human rights and equal right to a homeland for all people of the middle east. Including Jews, women, gays and everyone else who is systematically murdered by these folks!

It's not quite right regarding the end of the British mandate. Following WW2, the British had had enough with the fighting between the Arabs and Jews. They wanted out of Palestine. So they asked the UN to resolve the issue and stated they were going to leave. The UN commission came up with the idea of partition. This was put to a vote at the UN in 1947 and it was approved. The Jews accepted, the Arabs rejected. British said, well. we're still leaving, you sort it out between you. At this point there was a nasty civil war going on. There was no proper army (other than the British army but, similar to what was happening in India, they were focused just on saving British lives and did not want to get invovled), it was all militias at the time. In 1948, the Jews went ahead and established the State of Israel. Immediately five neighbouring countries invaded. They lost. And thus the State of Israel remained.

CampsieGlamper · 08/10/2023 15:26

The Palestinian terrorists do not need to win every encounter, they can lose an attack, the can afford to lose.
The Israelis cannot afford to lose one - as many supporters of Islamist terrorism have said, "Drive the Jews into the sea ".

CampsieGlamper · 08/10/2023 15:28

Why does this remind me of Noel coward
"Don't be nasty to the Nazis,
don't be horrid to the hun"

Pollyputhekettleon · 08/10/2023 15:29

Catsfrontbum · 07/10/2023 20:23

It’s a terribly sad situation. Israel seems to be hell bent on a mass land grab and erasing Palestinians. Palestinians seem to be radicalised en masses from brith to hate all of israel. Meanwhile ordinary people want nothing more than peace.

I'm not sure which ordinary people wanting peace are left if Israel is hell bent on erasing Palestinians and they are radicalized 'en masse' from birth to hate Israel. Haven't you kind of covered everyone there?

Museya15 · 08/10/2023 15:32

They'll never stop fighting out there, it's always been like that in the middle east.

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 15:34

@Meshigenus

Thanks for adding a lot more detail to my "there was a big fight" :D

There is so much more detail to add to the story from between 1947 and 1967 (and I suppose after) - such as the involvement of Jordan, Egypt etc, Particularly that Jordan annexed the West bank and EJ from 1950 to 1967. Jordan received applause for this essential "invasion" from several Arab states, including Iraq and Egypt. And although many Palestinians opposed it as they wanted their own independent state, many also supported it. The entire history of it leaves me believing it's entirely about religion and retaining a "pure" Muslim presence in the region.

Meshigenus · 08/10/2023 15:42

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 15:34

@Meshigenus

Thanks for adding a lot more detail to my "there was a big fight" :D

There is so much more detail to add to the story from between 1947 and 1967 (and I suppose after) - such as the involvement of Jordan, Egypt etc, Particularly that Jordan annexed the West bank and EJ from 1950 to 1967. Jordan received applause for this essential "invasion" from several Arab states, including Iraq and Egypt. And although many Palestinians opposed it as they wanted their own independent state, many also supported it. The entire history of it leaves me believing it's entirely about religion and retaining a "pure" Muslim presence in the region.

It does beg the question why no Palestinian state was established between 1948 and 1967 when Egypt and Jordan controlled Gaza and the WB respectively.

I'm not sure about the Muslim thing though. I think that's really been growing significantly over recent decades. There used to be a much stronger Christian and atheist (communist) influence. It was about Arab unity rather than Islam (I mean, the Assad regime in Syria isn't even Muslim). Now it's taken on a much more religious flavour which reflects Palestinian society at large too.

LemonyTicket · 08/10/2023 15:47

@Meshigenus

Exactly! They could have established a palestinian state! Instead chose to absorb in into Jordan.

The latter I struggle with as I consider myself and Arab Jew. Ethnically. Plus Arabic was our first language. So it certainly seemed to be about religion? Or maybe even culture.

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 08/10/2023 15:51

CampsieGlamper · 08/10/2023 15:26

The Palestinian terrorists do not need to win every encounter, they can lose an attack, the can afford to lose.
The Israelis cannot afford to lose one - as many supporters of Islamist terrorism have said, "Drive the Jews into the sea ".

Haven’t RTFT - because I was following the other now hidden thread on this subject - no idea why hidden: it just exposed cranks and those with reflexively anti-Israeli prejudice - but this is the nub of it. Hamas and Hezbollah are funded by Iran.

Iran and some of the more ghoulish elements in some of the Arab states want to annihilate Jews. It’s not a difficult concept, though it’s horrible. Some want other peoples not to exist. History, including history within living memory, shows this to be true.

Meshigenus · 08/10/2023 15:53

@LemonyTicket

My husband too - his family spoke Arabic as their first language.

Not an expert on this biut I think growing Jewish nationalism and Arab nationalism in the 20th century forced Arab Jews to throw in their lot with one of them - and it was made clear to them that there was no place for them in Arab nationalism, especially after the State of Israel was created. In the same way that the far-right does not see Jews as 'white'.

TruckDiver · 08/10/2023 16:02

Museya15 · 08/10/2023 15:32

They'll never stop fighting out there, it's always been like that in the middle east.

Not before 1948 it wasn't - well, no more so than everywhere else.

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