To ask if we can please try to have Palestine and Israel thread where we acknowledge how awful it is for everyone, but try not to throw shit at each other?

[theotherfossilsister]

Please

From someone who does have 'skin in the game.'

It is worth discussing but you’ve got people suddenly declaring where the blame is, this is where it went wrong, it’s Britains fault etc. This has been going on for so long and yet the only reason some are getting involved is to call anyone they can anti-Semitic or say go back to 1920 it’s the fault of the British!

Very illuminating to see the usual insistence that the holocaust shouldn't be mentioned in terms of current events, that even to do so is bigoted and so on

Compare that to what would happen if anyone dared to suggest that mentioning slavery was inappropriate in discussing the experiences of people of colour, and what's really going on here is immediately apparent

Please tell me you're joking?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/25/nazis-escaped-on-red-cross-documents

No, Not joking. Wrote my Master's dissertation on the challenges of impartiality in NGOs, and am very familiar with mistakes that such organisations have made through history.

Doesn't erase the commitment they have to an incredibly difficult status to maintain, nor does it mean that partisan charities are a better option to donate to if someone's seeking a 'neutral' party to support.

Have you read the article you linked to, or just the headline?

This in a nutshell!

Poppysmom22 · Yesterday 19:53
**
It's hard to believe that in this day and age we are still doing this to each other

Religion , don’t you just love it?!

Yes of course I've read it, Natura; I wouldn't have linked it if I hadn't

FWIW I can agree about the challenges in the commitment they claim, also that neutrality can be hard to find. I just don't happen to believe that the Red Cross strives very strongly towards it

Sorry, was supposed to be quoting a post and went wrong 😬

The amount of disguised and barely disguised anti-demotion on this thread is appalling.

You can still criticise Israel and not Jews, you know.

But then again where are people shouting to protect the only democracy in the Middle East that neighbouring countries have sworn to destroy? What other country should have to protect itself like this all the time?

This

There is absolutely no justification for what Hamas did yesterday. They are barbaric murdering scum.

They have betrayed their own people.
.

Another option is for Israel to annexe the occupied territories fully, make them a normal part of Israel and the inhabitants full citizens of Israel with the same rights as anyone else. Of course they would have no justification under international law for this, but it's not like they have any justification for the occupation in the first place anyway.

The problem with this is that Israel wants to remain a democratic jewish state, and it can only do that as long as it has a majority of jewish citizens. Accommodating huge numbers of muslim Palestinians (with a higher average birthrate) would blow that out of the water.

The only solution I can see working is a two state solution with sufficient input from the international community to prevent the new state from any aggression towards Israel. But Israel won't go for that, particularly under its current government. The situation as it is suits them just fine.

It’s frustrating mn keep deleting these threads. The other one just got deleted

It’s major news and all outlets are discussing it

It's a very difficult conversation to have. "Free Palestinine" has become trendy.

Most people have almost no understanding of the full facts. I've got a degree in Theology with a specialisation in ancient Israel and a Masters degree in Middle Eastern history.

Most people approach it with 2% of the knowledge and try and apply western values to people who do not share those values.

Add to that a worrying under current of antisemitism amongst the left (I'm left wing but despair of these people).

Add to that I'm also an Iraqi Jew! But a few people read a thread on Facebook and here we are

Most people approach it with 2% of the knowledge and try and apply western values to people who do not share those values

Worse still they're often the very ones who claim that absolutely everything is the fault of the west
Strange to apply western values when it suits and them blame exactly those for it all, but there you go

Am I allowed to ask what happened with the other thread? It was noticeable that some of the more extreme antisemites had started to congregate on there, but HQ doesn't often delete for this so I just wondered

You can critique the Israeli authorities and not be anti the Jewish people just like you can criticise Hamas and not be anti Muslim. I used to work with an NGO that had links with an organization in Israel that was mostly Jewish Israelis and they considered the situation apartheid. In fact there are many Israeli human rights organizations, politicians, academics, journalists and ordinary citizens who speak out about their government’s treatment of the occupation of Palestine.

The situation seems impossible now but I do believe peace is possible. 🙏🏽 The day before the Good Friday agreement was signed, something like 80% of people polled in northern Irish didn’t believe peace was possible. Now they live in a situation of imperfect peace. I’m not saying the two situations are the same but I do think that there are many parallels.

@Puzzledandpissedoff nothing specific that I saw beyond what you noted, and I was following it quite closely so I'm not sure what happened there.

I just had a look at the comments on the final picture of Shani Louk's instagram page. Many devastated comments and condolences from women in Iran and Turkey.

The holocaust is very very relevant. Its why Israel is so defensive to begin with and partly why the west will never tell Israel they are wrong for their own terrorism against Palestine.

There are indeed parallels.

The troubles started out in the late 60s as a civil rights movement, against the inequality, discrimination and lack of representation suffered by Catholics.

There's strong pro-Palestinian feeling in Ireland as a result.

Add to that its strategic position in the Middle East and the Jewish vote in America.

Yes of course basically they are our ally and technologically capable etc. Real politik again.

I agree. A lot of it is kneejerk anti Western sentiment and anti Americanism. It is a very simplistic 'An enemy of my enemy is my friend' where anything America do is automatically evil( while they themselves are often very wealthy, so have benefitted from capitalist America and living under a Western democracy). They don't have any answers to the problems, which is why they go back to 1948 and blame the British, which is completely pointless, because we are in 2023, not 1947.

while they themselves are often very wealthy, so have benefitted from capitalist America and living under a Western democracy).
exactly

I absolutely agree with you. You can not win using western values. Taliban was able to defeat US army in sandals with Kalashnikovs.

So the solution would need to be rather radical complete distraction of Hamas. If they are "democratically" elected terrorist organisation in Gaza then it means war with Gaza.