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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

A woman is a woman

734 replies

EmotionSickness · 06/10/2023 07:29

For those who have been following the Tory conference and general themes of their speeches…

How do you feel about Sunak’s speech?

I know there has been a lot of discussion on here from those who didn’t want to vote for a party that didn’t know the definition of a woman.

Rishi has stated clearly that “a woman is a woman and a man is a man.” While I’d argue that still isn’t a definition, per se, he is appeasing this way of thinking.

So I’m just wondering. Is this enough for you to vote Tory at the next election?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/10/2023 15:05

Now there’s absolutely no requirement for a TW to present as female. We’re much more aware now of what is described as Rapid onset prison dysphoria where men convincted of sexual assault suddenly find their inner women

Exactly.

BIossomtoes · 08/10/2023 15:06

There's not a fucker out there who genuinely cares about women's rights

Truest thing on the entire thread.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/10/2023 15:07

We can all agree on that.

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/10/2023 15:07

MargotBamborough
In that case, can we assume that Karen White, Isla Bryson, Barbie Kardashian and Katie Dolatowski don't actually believe that they are women? That they just pretend to believe they are women so they can enter women's spaces under false pretences so they can assault more women?”

Sorry, I’m missing something because that seems to be the opposite of what I said?

As I’ve said, I don’t give this subject much headspace in my daily life because It really doesn’t touch me. I only know those names because they’re, I think?, fairly rare cases. I

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/10/2023 15:10

How is the opposite of what you said? Do you think these violent males are women?

ArabellaScott · 08/10/2023 15:10

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/10/2023 15:07

MargotBamborough
In that case, can we assume that Karen White, Isla Bryson, Barbie Kardashian and Katie Dolatowski don't actually believe that they are women? That they just pretend to believe they are women so they can enter women's spaces under false pretences so they can assault more women?”

Sorry, I’m missing something because that seems to be the opposite of what I said?

As I’ve said, I don’t give this subject much headspace in my daily life because It really doesn’t touch me. I only know those names because they’re, I think?, fairly rare cases. I

Roughly half of tw in prison are sex offenders. See article above.

MankyMinge · 08/10/2023 15:12

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/10/2023 15:05

Now there’s absolutely no requirement for a TW to present as female. We’re much more aware now of what is described as Rapid onset prison dysphoria where men convincted of sexual assault suddenly find their inner women

Exactly.

I am sceptical of ROGD, suddenly these teens and 20s/early 30s are coming out and saying they been assigned the wrong sex at birth. Yet since childhood no indication of being anything other than a tomboy or a girly boy. I think many young people are really gender non conforming rather than dysphoric.

MankyMinge · 08/10/2023 15:16

Gender dysphoria in the prison population seems to be the equivalent of the "bad back" amongst the work shy population.

Sorry but you got to the age of being a big burly man and your parents, teachers, friends never realised you were suffering a dysphoria with your gender? Oh, aye. Pull the other one.

HettyWainty · 08/10/2023 15:16

ArabellaScott · 08/10/2023 15:05

Thank you, Hetty. I do appreciate it. I wasn't making any kind of point about voting, just sharing my experience because that was what was being discussed at the time.

I agree about Rishi Sunak throwing in an easy phrase because he knows it'll get support.

There's not a fucker out there who genuinely cares about women's rights, as far as I can see. I'm still politically homeless.

Show quote history

I agree.

Thank you for accepting my apology.

I wasn't deliberately being a twat.

The thread went from 'is Rishi saying this sentence enough to vote Tory?' to...something else which was fast moving and derailed.

I hope you have a lovely rest of your Sunday as far as possible.

ArabellaScott · 08/10/2023 15:21

Thanks, Hetty. You too. Brew

MargotBamborough · 08/10/2023 15:33

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/10/2023 15:07

MargotBamborough
In that case, can we assume that Karen White, Isla Bryson, Barbie Kardashian and Katie Dolatowski don't actually believe that they are women? That they just pretend to believe they are women so they can enter women's spaces under false pretences so they can assault more women?”

Sorry, I’m missing something because that seems to be the opposite of what I said?

As I’ve said, I don’t give this subject much headspace in my daily life because It really doesn’t touch me. I only know those names because they’re, I think?, fairly rare cases. I

You suggested that the reason why trans women are unlikely to harm women is because they believe they are women.

So when we have self identified trans women who have in fact harmed women, in very male ways, does that mean that you can in fact believe you are a woman whilst, say, using your penis to rape one? Or does it mean that they don't actually believe they are women and are just lying?

And either way, how do we keep those people out of women's spaces if we are supposed to let trans women who really do believe they are women in?

MargotBamborough · 08/10/2023 15:36

MankyMinge · 08/10/2023 15:12

I am sceptical of ROGD, suddenly these teens and 20s/early 30s are coming out and saying they been assigned the wrong sex at birth. Yet since childhood no indication of being anything other than a tomboy or a girly boy. I think many young people are really gender non conforming rather than dysphoric.

Show quote history

I blame porn.

I don't think it's a coincidence that so many girls from the generation that all saw women being gang banged in videos on some little scrote's phone in the playground before they were even out of primary school have suddenly decided they want to opt out of womanhood.

EasternStandard · 08/10/2023 17:15

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/10/2023 14:52

find it upsetting to talk about that experience, but I also find it upsetting to have people claim that all women are perfectly bloody happy sharing loos with a man if he 'thinks he's a woman'.

People who claim that are either clueless or they are deliberately pushing an agenda. It isn't true. Women don't want male people in female spaces, unless they have surgery to invert their penis. And many not even then.

Exactly. Agenda or clueless take your pick.

BIossomtoes · 08/10/2023 17:37

Neither. Just really have far bigger issues to worry about.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/10/2023 18:41

Neither. Just really have far bigger issues to worry about.

Whether or not you have far bigger issues, has absolutely no bearing on the incorrect statement in question, that "all women are happy" with so called "trans women" (males) in female only spaces. Anyone claiming that is either deeply uninformed, or lying.

MankyMinge · 08/10/2023 18:43

BIossomtoes · 08/10/2023 17:37

Neither. Just really have far bigger issues to worry about.

Probably. I must admit when I hear about deadnaming and misgendering being "literal violence" I do have to try hard not to eyeroll. I can understand why they may not like being deadnamed or misgendered but to compare it to being assaulted just grinds my gears. I want to tell these people to go find some real survivors of horrific violence and hear their stories.

MankyMinge · 08/10/2023 18:46

If someone is misgendering a TW as part of a campaign of deliberate abuse and harassment then sure that is abuse and it's traumatic. I really feel for NB who come from that kind of experience as no one should endure it .

But when you get kids whose parents are still getting to grips with their child's new name and pronouns forget to call them by their new names, equating that with traumatic abuse is just not something I could ever take seriously. That girl in Canada who was removed from her home because of "family violence" because her father wouldn't allow her or transition for example . Unless there was a lot more to the case than what the media portrayed. I'm willing to grant that is a possibility.

MrsSkylerWhite · 09/10/2023 10:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 15:10
**
How is the opposite of what you said? Do you think these violent males are women?”

My bad. Misunderstood or misread. No I don’t think any man can be a woman.

lifeturnsonadime · 09/10/2023 12:16

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/10/2023 12:17

Sueveneers

Its far, far more than that. It's not about 'gender', it's about sex. Its about men in women and girls restrooms, change rooms, taking their sports spots. If you you don't see how very serious this is, you're not paying attention”

Shall ask again, how many trans women are there in the UK?

Aged nearly 60, I’ve seen 3 in my whole life. Walking along the street/waiting on a train platform and working in The Range (I’ve possibly seen more without knowing but let’s be honest, most transwomen are probably pretty obvious if you take more than a passing glance, the 3 I’ve seen were).

Never encountered a transwoman in any of the places you mention. Wouldn’t bother me if I did, because they all have cubicles and I imagine those people would just be getting on with their lives, trying on clothes/swimming, whatever, like me.

There are far, far more pressing economic, housing, transport, education, disability and health issues negatively affecting millions of people, many single women parents, every single day. Maybe you’ve not been paying attention because you’re fixated on this one issue that most people don’t much think/care about?

Sunak probably never gave it a moment’s thought until he the script he was given, that was written to try to garner a few more, desperate votes after Braverman took care of the racist, homophobic and misogynistic constituent in her speech. Hunt targeted the sick and disabled last week so it was just the transphobic electorate left to address.

Nothing could induce me to vote for these vile people. Shame on anyone who does. I’m terrified to think of the state of our nation in 5 years if they get in again. Not us, personally, we’ll be fine, probably prosper in fact. Millions will be ground into the dirt though.

Anyone voting purely on this pretty minor, over-emotive issue will have a lot to answer for and will probably live to regret it as they look around and see what they’ve contributed to. Once the election is done and dusted, do they really believe that a Conservative government would care about it one iota?

I saw 2 trans women in Oxford yesterday.

I'm sure that they are perfectly lovely and harmless but there are still male and pose the same risk to me, where I am vulnerable, than any other male.

lifeturnsonadime · 09/10/2023 12:18

MargotBamborough · 08/10/2023 13:34

I don't believe you.

Show quote history

Nor do I!

This poster obviously doesn't think any of us have travelled or lived in France, Unisex loos are not the norm.

You may find holes in floors but not unisex loos.

lifeturnsonadime · 09/10/2023 12:23

Theeyeballsinthesky · 08/10/2023 13:49

You wouldn’t be afraid walking into the ladies and seeing a 6ft bloke in there?

aye right

well you do you but I’d be bloody scared and you don’t get to consent on my behalf

a 6ft bloke can fuck off to the men’s where he belongs

What I find astounding about this is that these Labour voters, rather than putting Labour to task on this issue that effects ALL women, will willingly throw women's rights under the bus not to vote Tory.

I'm not a Conservative voter personally but I will not vote for Labour until they have clear policies that protect women and children from gender ideology.

You only have to look at Northern America to see what a fine mess is coming to the Labour Party when they win and introduce Self ID.

WickedSerious · 09/10/2023 12:43

ArabellaScott · 08/10/2023 14:05

I would certainly feel intimidated by a man in male clothing who walked into a woman’s loo. I’d tell him to leave, too. I wouldn’t be intimidated by a transwoman and I would like to understand why someone else is.

See my answer above.

I'm curious - why would a man wearing a skirt be less intimidating than any other man?

Because he looks beautiful,which makes him harmless.

OvaHere · 09/10/2023 12:55

Never encountered a transwoman in any of the places you mention. Wouldn’t bother me if I did, because they all have cubicles and I imagine those people would just be getting on with their lives, trying on clothes/swimming, whatever, like me.

So this is what you imagine would happen. What if your imagination is wrong?

There are plenty of women and girls who have encountered these male people in female spaces and have not had your imagined fairytale experience. Far from it.

Passepartoute · 09/10/2023 15:45

OvaHere · 09/10/2023 12:55

Never encountered a transwoman in any of the places you mention. Wouldn’t bother me if I did, because they all have cubicles and I imagine those people would just be getting on with their lives, trying on clothes/swimming, whatever, like me.

So this is what you imagine would happen. What if your imagination is wrong?

There are plenty of women and girls who have encountered these male people in female spaces and have not had your imagined fairytale experience. Far from it.

It's a virtual certainty that we've all been in the Ladies at the same time as transwomen and known nothing about it.