A woman is a woman

[EmotionSickness]

For those who have been following the Tory conference and general themes of their speeches…

How do you feel about Sunak’s speech?

I know there has been a lot of discussion on here from those who didn’t want to vote for a party that didn’t know the definition of a woman.

Rishi has stated clearly that “a woman is a woman and a man is a man.” While I’d argue that still isn’t a definition, per se, he is appeasing this way of thinking.

So I’m just wondering. Is this enough for you to vote Tory at the next election?

On what grounds are they not actually men? It's bizarre magical thinking. A male puts on a skirt and somehow I have to be ok with him in women's space?

why would any man want to hurt me though? The fact is though that men DO hurt women for no reason other than they want too and they don’t have signs on them saying which ones are lovely & which ones are violent”

As I know only too well from personal experience.

In the end, getting this awful, harmful government out is my priority though. we all have to vote with our conscience and what matters most to us individually, I suppose.

As I know only too well from personal experience.

Yes, so do I and I imagine many of the women on this thread do.

Those who don't understand biology in other words. How can a man be a woman? It's not biologically possible.

People have the right to their opinions and to express them but I have the right to say I think their views are nonsensical if I so wish.

It doesn't need to be 99.99999% to be fair.

If even 1% of women aren't OK with it, it's not OK.

I cannot understand why some women would be more concerned about that "boo hoo they won't let me use the ladies' because I have a penis, I'm such a victim boo hoo" rhetoric than they are about actual victims (women who have trauma from sexual assaults). The "boo hoo" types don't realise how privileged they are.

Polling is very clear. The majority of women in England and in Scotland do not want intact males in their female only spaces, regardless of gender identity.

I think you’ll find that’s not the way the world works. I was taking issue with the assumption that virtually every woman shares that poster’s views. They don’t.

Most women do though, @BIossomtoes

Why should the less than 1% of the male population who want to use women's spaces matter more than the (a lot more than) 1% of women who don't want them to?

Nope.

But excellent aggression and implication that you're being silenced or people want you to STFU when that was never said.

All of my posts have said TW shouldn't be in women's spaces. End of.

But i can care about that and also not believe for a second that the Tories really care about women. And also, look at the whole rather than individuals and see that more women are suffering under a Tory Government as NHS workers, rape, CSA or DV victims, working Mums, single parent Mums, carers who are usually women, minimum wage earners and UC claimants who are usually women.

Nobody said you STFU, just that maybe, maybe you shouldn't attempt to influence people's voting using an emotive example of something that happened to you when millions of other women are suffering in many different ways under a Tory Government and shouldn't be made to feel like they're failing as a feminist or a woman for not giving priority to the 'trans issue' and vote for a party that will effect more women directly on a day to day basis and literal 'life or death situations' or for a second be obtuse enough to believe that the Tories give a shit anyway.

I don't want "non intact" males in women's spaces either, tbh.

What they have chosen to do with their genitals is of no concern of mine and certainly doesn't make them a woman.

I believe the argument from a TW point of view is that they don’t feel safe in men’s toilets.

The argument then is, well if women don’t feel safe with TW in their spaces, where do they go?

Individual cubicles with their own sinks etc seems to be the logical answer, but not viable to do in reality.

The issue is that women shouldn’t lose their right to their own spaces, but TW should also feel safe themselves. So what’s the solution here?

Look, I don't wish to harm TW. I wish them no harm, I don't believe they should face employment or housing discrimination or abuse or anything. No decent human would.

But I cannot put their hurty feelings of TRA above the PTS D actually experienced by sexual abuse survivors. I just can't. It's insulting for the TRAs to claim that being misgendered or denied a right to use the ladies' comes anything close either to real discrimination like I mentioned above (which many LGB, Black, travellers, Jews or Asians experience day to day) or the trauma caused by being sexually abused. It just doesn't come close.

They want to be women but they have no idea of our suffering .

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 14:32
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On what grounds are they not actually men? It's bizarre magical thinking. A male puts on a skirt and somehow I have to be ok with him in women's space?”

I don’t think anyone has said they are?

Haven’t really given it much headspace because it’s never affected me negatively. That’s the way most of us form opinions, I think.

Men can’t be women, that’s pretty obvious to me. Just as women can’t be men. I do think though that most believe fervently that they are and what I don’t understand is the logic in believing someone who sees themself as a woman would want to harm another woman? Clearly, there are predators in all guises but surely most aren’t?

Thinking about it, it must be a sad, miserable existence. Knowing deep down that you can never be who you believe you are and having to worry all the time that other people are fearful of you or going to attack you. Not a life someone would choose lightly, I think.

Third spaces is the answer but we know TW won’t accept those because of the lack of validation

as has been said before, it’s not the space, it’s the women in the space

It's not ideal that TW don't feel safe in the men's but a TW who gets aggro from a man in the men's has a bigger chance of defending himself in a fight than a woman would against a TW.

I think cubicle loos are best for all. Let's not have ladies or men's just unisex individual loos.

Thinking about it, it must be a sad, miserable existence. Knowing deep down that you can never be who you believe you are and having to worry all the time that other people are fearful of you or going to attack you. Not a life someone would choose lightly, I think.

I completely agree. It must be dreadful.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 14:32

As I know only too well from personal experience.

Yes, so do I and I imagine many of the women on this thread.

Sadly, you’re probably right. It’s not a competition, though. I don’t suppose that many of the women on here subjected to abuse were assaulted by TW, though. Most would be by relatives, I imagine.

What happens if they don't get validation? do they turn into pumpkins or something ? Nobody likes feeling invalidated but they don't get to be validated at the expense of a vulnerable group (women).

Thinking about it, it must be a sad, miserable existence. Knowing deep down that you can never be who you believe you are and having to worry all the time that other people are fearful of you or going to attack you. Not a life someone would choose lightly, I think.

I'm only being slightly flippant when I say, they could choose to believe us when we say that nobody else actually has a gender identity that matches their penis or their vagina either.

Nothing happens.

There is no evidence that they are actually at risk of harm in men's spaces either.

@ArabellaScott isn't a Tory, @HettyWainty. She's just sharing her experience of being sexually assaulted, to explain her own view. It's not for you to decide whose experience is valid.

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I think cubicle loos are best for all. Let's not have ladies or men's just unisex individual loos”

👏👏👏

Lots of reasons why enclosed cubicles aren't great from a safety perspective either.

The safest thing for women is a room full of cubicles with gaps at the top and the bottom, for women only.