To think the high volume of male abusers means some people find it hard to see when a female is an abuser?

[BraykeDance]

Having experienced first hand fairly extreme abuse from a female, I feel a bit like even in 2023 some people struggle to believe women are capable of extreme psychological, emotional and even physical abuse.

I find often people want to victim blame by implying the man must have deserved it or driven her to it. Amber Heard being a great example of an abuser where I think if she were a man people would see much more clearly that she is an abuser.

I understand men (for reasons I don't understand) have a greater tendency to be abusers in the sense of power and control; but women do this too sometimes.

I found, as someone recovering from such am abuser, that many people minimised it and almost normalised behaviour that would certainly mean prison for a man.

Which made healing as a victim a lot harder. And also made it far easier for the abuser to continue.

AIBU to think we hold women to a different standard and sometimes reframe abusive behaviour or coercive control to fit with the idea of the female victim?

Yes and a much more plausible one. I’ve never understood those, predominantly men, who push the human males are not monogamous theory. Ok, but then human females aren’t monogamous either. You don’t get get half a species being monogamous and the other half not, it’s counterproductive as an evolutionary strategy. But a lot of men don’t like to consider the implications of that.

I don’t think women do get stiffer penalties. They are more likely to avoid a custodial sentence and a disproportionate % are sent to a psychiatric facility instead of prison which mirrors society’s thinking that only mad (unnatural) women are violent.

and a disproportionate % are sent to a psychiatric facility instead of prison which mirrors society’s thinking that only mad (unnatural) women are violent

Whereas when it comes to men, abuse is normal(ised)/a natural expression of masculinity perhaps? Nothing to see here, afterall boys will be boys...

Yes exactly. It’s “natural” although bad for men to be violent. Violence is always portrayed as something men are naturally born with the tendency towards and have to fight against by being civilised.

It is a more complex scenario than that. There is evidence supportive of the Chivalry theory (that women receive more lenient sentences) but this is complicated by race, class and whether they have children and a history of offending. There is also evidence supportive of the double deviance/Evil woman theory (that women who commit sexual or violent crime, outside the norm are more harshly punished than a man would be) see: https://crimsoc.hull.ac.uk/2020/06/18/gender-differences-and-sentencing/

When I worked in a DV charity, the admin team would often put the female perpetrators in as the victim because they hadn’t read the referral properly. They just ‘assumed’ it was that way round. As many times as I told them, they never listened and it happened time and time again. For reference, it was only about 5% of our clients who were female perpetrators. Not saying that the actual percentage isn’t higher but those were the ones where the victim came forward or the Police reported it (with consent)

Does it mirror society's thinking?
Or does it reflect that women are much less likely to be violent on the whole, so the numbers who are violent through illness is proportionately higher?

And yes serious mental illness can make people behave violently.
E.g.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/roller-skate-stabbing-bristol-benjamin-bridgeman-knowle-sentence-b402749.html

Just Google stabbing detained under mental health act and there are loads. Mainly men, again, I think

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with pretty much everything you said there.
I think most men definitely wish to challenge those stereotypes.
In my experience most men want to challenge this stereotype that they shouldn't cry, don't have emotions, don't talk about their problems, are meant to be macho and strong and in control, especially the generation coming through now.
I have sons and they are very emotional, but I can already see my eldest realised that he shouldn't cry anymore because boys don't cry, he's not even at secondary school yet.
Its amazing how when you look at toddlers and small kids, you see equal amounts of boys and girls dissolving in tears, but suddenly by adulthood men don't appear to cry or talk about their problems.

Also as I think someone has alluded to upthread, being masculine and tough appeals to women, so that enforces this view that they need to be tough and manly in order to get a girlfriend, so women are reinforcing that stereotype too.

Depending on the data it appears that between 1 in 6 and 1 in 4 men report to be the victims of domestic abuse at some point in their life (not crime stats as they are different due to low reporting) so it's not small and it means that most people will know someone who is a victim and be compelled to do something about it.

I absolutely think women and men can work together to challenge abuse (both male and female) and i actually think that's the best way to approach it rather than battling it out over who has it worse.

Really interesting read drawing on data from the US.

I didn't say that is was the driver, but dismissing it as "misogynistic twaddle" shows that you are not open to what is happening and how people are developed by the society that we all live in.

It’s hard to untangle what is society/social, what is nature and what is illness.

It is, isn't it?
Thats why these discussions have to be data based otherwise it is pointless.

You said boys are shaped into being bad by "Market forces" e.g. whether girls will date them.

There is no evidence your version is correct, it's based on anecdote and assumption. And the assumption is pure misogynistic stereotypes.

I was pointing out you can make the opposite argument, potentially with more credibility due to the fact there is actual scientific research supporting it.

I wouldn't though because the whole premise that "bad boys get more girls" is flawed.

There's a difference between men being on board with challenging stereotypes they don't like very much. Like having to 'be brave' instead of crying; and challenging the ones that advantage them.
The stereotypes that tell men they are stronger, more powerful, superior to and therefore can control women (which are at the root of the issues faced by disbelieved male victims of abuse) are not challenged by men.
Because if they were, why do we still have them? Women have been challenging them for decades, so if men don't like them either, who is upholding them?

They are challenged by men and women, but more men and women buy into the stereotypes than are challenging them.

You see it play out on thread after thread on here. Women upholding the stereotypes.

No it doesn't.

Anyone being sentenced by a court to a hospital order has that happen because there is significant evidence presented by qualified and usually forensic Psychiatrists who assessed the individual and provided a report.

Believe me, all forensic Psychiatrists know that women can be violent and that that is not an indicator of mental illness.

As most of the stereotypes around sex advantage men over women then I struggle to believe there is anything like the investment from women in upholding them that there is from men.

But there has been a huge change in society over the last 20 or so years.
30% of leadership positions are now held by women, yes it's not 50%, and it may never be for many reasons, but it's a huge shift. If men hold all the power and make all the decisions and want to keep women down and maintain these stereotypes that they are powerful and in control (I don't agree with any of that) how has this happened?
The only way this change could have occurred is if men are on board as, like you said, they are literally the people making the decisions at the top.

Straight out of the incel playbook. It's pretty obvious at this point FYI.

I have some experience with psychiatry and there are still sexism in how behaviours are either viewed as normal or pathological.

Not the stereotype of men being prone to violence, this is a negative stereotype that while abhorred is thought to be perfectly normal for men.

Stereotypes don’t change by top down authoritarianism unless they are really good at running a propaganda engine. Usually it takes grassroots bottom up effort to change stereotypes.

Take for example, socially permissible violence- armed policing and military. Stereotypes about who is naturally inclined to be violent drive the view that women don’t make the best armed police officers or soldiers but men do.

So no real counter point, just name calling, good for you.

As soon as you have a different point of view to a Mumsnet feminist, they either call you names or tell you it's some kind of infiltration, it's a tactic to try to belittle and silence people because it makes it look like someone's views are so ridiculous that they must be some kind of bot, even if they are airing views that are really commonly held in society.
It's a form of gaslighting, by deliberately denying someone's reality, or deliberately distorting reality or distorting someone's interpretation of events.

It's like saying that women often go for bad boys or men that fit the alpha male stereotype, a very commonly held view in society whether it's backed up by science or not is open for debate, yet the shock reaction and claims of misogyny are totally out of proportion with the claim.
I witness this all the time on Mumsnet it's so unpleasant.