Would you have been burned as a witch?

[Nonplusultra]

I’ve gone down a bit of a rabbit hole reading about the history of witch hunting and I never appreciated the sheer scale of it and how it has affected women for centuries since. It never made sense to me how much women have participated in their own oppression through the centuries, and even today. Why there are such different gender standards around beauty, appearance and aging.

All sorts of women were arrested, brutalised and sadistically tortured for weeks or months (not even necessarily for information because whether they confessed or not , or recanted made little difference) and publicly executed, sometimes horrifically.

The spurious grounds for arrest and interrogation included

being old, or menopausal, or just looking old (statistically most of the women murdered were over 40)

being ugly, unattractive, having bad teeth, scars or bruises on your face, a limp or bad posture, or using artificial means to look more attractive (false eyelashes anyone?)

Being poor, a drain on communal resources (on benefits?),

practising medicine (cater, midwife, nurse, doctor?),

having no relatives, or relatives who don’t like you (anyone estranged from family or not get on with the in-laws?), or related to anyone who might meet the criteria of witch

struggling with your mental health, or related to , or associated with someone with mental health issues

working for anyone suspected of witchcraft, or working for someone who is suspicious of witchcraft - not good to be too good at your job or not good enough. Also being made redundant was a dangerous time.

insolent, mouthy, argumentative, or just too talkative

involved in social unrest (ever been on a march or signed a petition?), expressed anti authority views (commented online?)

causing a man to be impotent (dh ever struggle to keep an errection?) or to lose control of his sexual urges (ever been a victim of SA or rape?)

sexually promiscuous (eg not a nun), knowing anything about contraception, or anything about abortion

likes dancing or drinks alcohol

Dressing in men’s clothing (own a pair of jeans?)

Illwished or cursed anyone (Fottfsof), or made occult signs (flipped the finger?)

And, if you’re a man reading this, knowing or being related to anyone fitting the above criteria could get you dragged in too.

So, would you be likely to be found guilty of witchcraft?

YABU - My conduct is beyond reproach in every way
YANBU - I might have ended up tied to a stake

Witches were hung and not burned. Only the nobility would have been able to read and write. The reform Act of 1867 paved the way for the Education Act of 1870 for universal education of the masses. So left handedness would have been discovered because you were awkward with a butter churn handle or something similar not because you could write.

Heretics were burned at the stake as were women accused of treason and you committed treason if you committed adultery as a woman.

One of my favourite books is Precious Bane by Mary Webb, the main character has a cleft palate and is accused of witchcraft. That book read when a child made me want a man like Kester Woodseaves in my life. There are also accusations of witchcraft in a great novel called Year of Wonders by Geraldine Brooks set in Eyam the Plague village in Derbyshire who quarantined itself in 1665 in the time of the great plague, it’s a work of fiction based on some facts.

I am from a long line of opinionated outspoken bookish women.

We lived near a pond that was used for ducking ‘aggravating and vexatious women’, including witches and ‘scolds’.
I’d definitely have ended up there eventually although I suspect being guilty of being a witch would have been inevitable too. I’m old, have facial scars, a nurse, I wear jeans and I talk too much 🫤

No children. Stop to talk to every cat I encounter. Enjoy messing around with essential oils and home remedies. Not a people pleaser. Strong opinions about many things, particularly the poor behaviour of inadequate men. I doubt I would have got to 40.

YetAnotherSpartacus I need to think more about this to be able to articulate it properly , but yes, I agree. But I think that part of the reason we dismiss women’s issues is also due to the massive disciplinary effect of these persecutions. It’s all knotted together.

I would like to see:

-The true history taught in schools and in a way that emphasises the brutality rather than being jokey.
-That we change the language we use to refer to the 'witch trials' and instead use terminology such as "women wrongly accused of witchcraft". Witches were not persecuted. Women were.
-We stop telling jokes and trading on 'witches' for cheap tacky tourist and other reasons.
-Where towns and villages have accoutrements that in some way are related to the trials that these be treated with solemnity and the true story told on information boards.
-That in villages and towns where there is a place where women were falsely accused of witchcraft and were subject to persecution and often torture and death these be commemorated with a plaque condemning the acts and honoring the women.
-That when we talk about historical figures who aided and abetted the trials, torture and death of women accused of witchcraft we emphasise this and name it as hatred of women, etc.
-That we act to prevent the ongoing torture and murder of women accused of witchcraft today.
-That we link what happened then to centuries of hatred of women that continues today
-That those responsible in an institutional sense apologise to women and in the memory of those accused of witchcraft, tortured and murdered that they pledge ongoing support and resources for women subject to VAWG (only the real, cunty sort).

As a start ...

Yes, I'm covered in freckles and moles. I have a limp, a slight speech impediment, red hair and my own mother thought I was possessed (asd on my part, freakish religious obsession on hers)

Definitely!

Yes .... have never 'fitted in', generally happy with my own company, find solace in nature, hugely interested in the beneficial properties of plants, work in healthcare, have attitudes and behaviours oft referred to as eccentric.

Appearance wise, am menopausal, have long hair (despite many thinking women of a 'certain age' shouldn't....how dare the 'crone' be attempting to mimic the 'maiden'!), like previous posters, I also have supernumerary nipples (plural, one under each breast, along the 'milk line' which cats and dogs have), I have a large birthmark on my hip which would no doubt have been described as a waning moon and am very freckly so have a plethora of suspicious marks to seize upon.

There has not been one single day of the last 40 years that I have not had at least one cat in my life - and that one cat has always been black. I have owned up to 5 cats at a time, 4 of them black. When out and about I am the sort of person who constantly looks out for cats and calls them to her for a fuss and to tell them how lovely they are. I also love bats (another 'creature of the night') and instead of boring baby mobiles, hung a huge furry bat over my daughter's cot instead.

I have experienced a number of premonitions in my lifetime (unfortunately unrelated to the lottery) - a couple in relation to well known crimes though I don't like to discuss this. I also have an uncanny knack of accurately guessing people's ages to within one year, around 95% of the time - so much so that each time I'm asked my family call me a 'witch'.

When time allows, I like to 'consort' with the dead, i.e. visit old graveyards....because they are peaceful, because they are often wildlife havens, and because you can glean so much thought provoking social history from both the inscriptions and location of graves.

I speak out when I see injustices taking place. I am the 'stupid old bag' who'll tell swearing teenagers to watch their language on the bus in front of younger children or the 'bitch' who refuses to meekly step out of the way of an oh so important man intent on barging into me on the pavement. I won't flatter men's egos by simpering in their presence or giggling at their sexist remarks - especially in a professional environment. That apparently makes me a 'miserable old cow' (sigh).

I am GC .... therefore by refusing to 'believe in' non-scientific, misogynistic and Emperor's New Clothes style nonsense driven by biological men and brainwashed handmaidens I am already demonstrating that I don't know my 'place' - inferior to men.

In short, I consider myself to be a reasonably normal woman though I'm also aware others don't always feel the same ... and this often boils down, in my opinion, to a failure to conform to society's 'norms'. I hate, and swerve, large social gatherings for example because they stress and exhaust me and honestly, why go with a miserable face and spoil others' fun? Yet great offence often seems to be taken to politely declining invitations.

Back in the day - and assuming I had the benefit of education and political knowledge (which is unlikely) - I suppose I might have attempted to keep my head down, not draw any attention to myself and not display any traits which might be perceived as witch like (in a past version of modern day masking I suppose). Then again, it would seem that practically anything, however remotely tenuous, could be twisted to suit the agenda of witchfinders, disgruntled neighbours and others so terrified of being accused themselves that they would point the finger first.

Self preservation seems an obvious defence mechanism to modern women now - who often adjust their lifestyle and behaviour in all sorts of ways to try to protect themselves - but that is with the advantage for most of us of living in a global society, being literate, having communication at our fingertips on a scale unimaginable to our ancestors and therefore arguably a much greater awareness of the dangers we face compared to a woman in the 16th or 17th centuries - regardless of how intelligent she was - who would almost certainly have been illiterate (unless born into a progressive wealthy family) and may never have stepped foot out of the same village her entire life. I can't help pondering just how much knowledge existed generally of witchfinders (as opposed to the belief in the evils of witchcraft, demons etc al which was no doubt preached in church), particularly in smaller villages and hamlets, until their actual arrival? It must have been utterly terrifying.

This is such an interesting topic ..... we are the granddaughters of the witches you couldn't burn!

I feel like all women fit under at least one of those. I don't understand who was left!?

It’s not that every woman that fit any of those criteria was killed, but that the vast majority of women could have been.

If past lives exist I was probably burned at the stake in several of them.

I sustained a prolonged attack last year from my ex, on the stairs with him on top of me, double my weight while he repeatedly banged my head on the stairs and intermittently strangled me. I honestly thought I was going to die but still looked him square in the eye, told him he was a fucking animal and that I pitied him.

So yes, I'd be a gonna on the basis that I won't be bullied or silenced, it's just not in my nature. Too much of a fighter, would happily go down fighting.

we are the granddaughters of the witches you couldn't burn!

@catsmother I might get that printed on a t shirt

Quite a few of the not inconsiderable number of male witches are thought to have been child abusers - so a nice clean quick way of ridding your village of the resident 'paedo'

No doubt odd isolated innocent men were caught up too

Google .... there are plenty of T shirts and posters etc already out there!

Just googled and found the company that does it already

All very cute but they didn't burn (or hang) witches they burned women and most died horrible deaths.

Sorry for the downer.

@Nonplusultra Sorry I didn't mean "left" as in not killed even though that's how it sounded. I just mean surely nearly every woman comes under at least one of those criteria so who did these witch hunters expect to have left if they had achieved what they wanted.

I have this one.....

Green eyes, red hair and a load of health issues so yes
I have this on my kitchen wall

Yes I'd have been a witch. Over 50, widowed, unattractive and I'm not a pushover or doormat like I was when I was younger. I'm friendly and polite and have got friends but I've got a neighbour who's antisocial and who tantrums. I don't argue with him but I don't pander to his antisocial behaviour either, which doesn't suit his brattish personality, so I'd definitely have been dobbed in as a witch by now.

Another major social driver at the end of the 17th century was the aftermath of the plague years eg in the 1660s etc

This trauma was made worse by the differential male to female mortality from the disease which favoured females surviving

This resulted in more girls who would inevitably grow up to be single as their male equivalents had died and also more widows than widowers often with dependent children. These 2 groups of women unsupported by a male provider would be seen as an economic drain on a small community - they would also be more vulnerable by reason of no man to protect them

An accusation of witchcraft neatly removed these women

we are the granddaughters of the witches you couldn't burn!

The downside to this is it suggests that the women (and men) who died were actually witches. That they had done something to justify the utter horror of what they went through.

Where as the reality is the vast majority of those women weren't killed for being witches but for being women

Probably already been said but FYI those convicted of witchcraft were hanged not burned in the British Isles.

Also, a great deal of what is on the Net is nothing to do with actual history and should be treated with extreme caution.

There are books written by real historians who have done the research.

Really interesting thread!
I’ve often joked that in a former life I was tried and executed for witchcraft. I even have a top that has a logo on it stating ‘we are the granddaughters of the witches you tried to burn’

There wouldn’t be much evidence needed to convict me:

I have two cats (familiars) one is black.

I live alone.

I am an atheist (renounced God)

I have many, many books and wall art on witchcraft or occult inspired.

I’m passionate and outspoken about issues I care about.

I used to have a door sign stating that religious callers are not welcome with a pentagram on it.

I love Halloween.

I’m done for! 😂

I agree