To think that 'looks don't matter ' is a complete lie

[Petunia90]

It's just something people say, alongside 'money isn't everything '. However they absolutely do matter. They might not be #1 priority, but I'd be very surprised if anyone chose their partner without any consideration for how they looked. We're judged on looks all the time, rightly or wrongly, whether that be in relationships, job interviews and so on.

And men, most let themselves go.

But being invisible in a perv on way I mean. Otherwise I don't get the invisibility thing, older people around me are the ones always chatting to strangers etc, I always notice older people and prefer talking to them.

Pretty girls get away with murder.
No one let’s ugly girls get away with anything, even just living as an ugly girl.

Looks and money matter, of course they do. They shouldn't matter though, and I'd rather live in a world where they didn't.

Fancying people who are not conventionally attractive is not the same as noticing. I can notice someone might have bad hair, a paunch and an "unusual" face, then I might get to know them, see a glint in their eye and fall in love with their energy. My exes come in all shapes and sizes!

I know some conventionally very good looking people but I don't find them attractive in anyway. They look a bit 'boring' to me. I'm more likely to find someone less conventionally attractive actually attractive. People with 'character'.

WRT people commenting on 'ugly' men cheating on 'beautiful' women, why wouldn't they cheat on them? People don't cheat because their partners are unattractive. They cheat because of an inadequacy in them.

I read something last year that suggested men who are less attractive will cheat on their more attractive partners because they end up with a sense of "I do deserve women who look like that after all!' They spent so much time thinking they'd only get an ugly girlfriend that they get a bit ahead of themselves.

Also that, regardless of a person's looks, if they are dating/have dated someone attractive enough previously, they are more likely to be found attractive by equally/more attractive people in the future. It's a form of validation for the incoming person.

But, as others have said looks aren't the only thing that make someone attractive.

I am objectively better looking than my partner 🤷🏻‍♀️ If we were to split up, he would find someone else sooner than I would because he is a more attractive person over all. He's the sort of person people (male and female) naturally gravitate towards. I'm the sort they forget they've met! He's warm and open and must just communicate something on a subconscious level. I might get chatted up on a night out but he's the one with people seeking him out and hanging around with him.

@Petunia90 it’s not that at all, re: abbey Clancy. Some people think people cheat because someone more attractive came along, my point was that often isn’t actually the case.

I've met very few men who consider themselves unattractive. Even the worst of them tend to describe themselves as 'average'. If they feel restricted at all in the dating department they tend to think its due lack of height or wealth rather than their facial features.
Women on the other tend to have a very high bar set for them. Name any woman generally regarded as beautiful and they'll be a rush of people telling you they don't think she's anything special. I've seen it recently with Margot Robbie, who is 'just pretty' apparantly!
So back to Crouch and Clancy, there's a good chance as a tall wealthy man who no doubt thinks himself at least 'average' looking, in a world where its hard to know how beautiful a woman needs to be to be considered exceptional, he probably doesn't think he's punching above his weight at all.

Yeah it's not about looks, look at all the actors/actresses or singers who are stunning/handsome and get cheated on still.
It's about the cheater. They feel entitled and are that way inclined that they get bored and want different. Even the people who are with the supermodels.
Where I live the women look like Kathy Burke and are in the most loyal loving relationships and the men adore them.
It's always about the cheater.

Agree @Disturbia81 It's all about the cheater and their personality and moral code. Nothing to do with how attractive their partner is.

I'm not so sure. It's not as if the only people who are in relationships are people who are beautiful or good-looking, or even conventionally attractive at all. You're right that people put up with lots of crap in relationships, but I don't think that's directly related to looks. Many people are crap partners without being attractive!

Of course they matter

In our western culture there is definitely a demand for aesthetic symmetry and generally accepted standards of beauty can be observed.

Women: perky boobs, nice hair, nice ass, curves in right places, not too tall, make up etc.

Men: 6 foot tall plus, muscles, v-shape, good jawline etc.

I'm a guy with none of the above features, dating for me has always been dire, in fact in high school girls showed so little interest in me that I ended up discovering my bisexuality in order to get what I needed, I couldn't get it from the girls so I got it from the boys instead, where such standards didn't matter - they were so horny I only needed to be alive! This suited me as apart from the fact I didn't meet the visual criteria I also could not be arsed with the mind fuckery and drama of the girls. You have to play the game, right?

I'm in my 30s now and most women would still not care to look at me in a romantic way, I'm 5'6, skinny and I look very boyish. My personality is also quite feminine - I have good emotional intelligence but that doesn't matter a fuck it seems :/

It's really annoying to me, I consider myself very good looking but just not in the way women want, they just think I'm cute and want to mother me.

Can't win.

As a seasoned ugly povvo I can tell you from lived experience that both things matter a very great deal to the vast majority of people.

Of course they matter. But so do many other things.

Grow some facial hair ?

But good looking people do get away with a lot of bad behaviour.

For some people, yes.

I've read a few threads I've eye rolled at recently on here - women who've posted about flakey men treating them badly - where the only good things they've had to say about him are that he is tall and good looking. And when people have pointed out he's a dick, have replied "but he's good looking."

Whereas I tend to find these to be the least interesting and important aspects of a person.

Absolutely agree with this. The way I approached it with DD (nearing 10, and starting to become aware of such things), was to ask if she noticed, then when she said ‘yes’, and ask ‘and then what?’ Because for me, I notice, but unless I (a) fancy the person; or (b) find something singularly noticeable about what they’re wearing - usually good, sometimes bad (looking at you, nude leggings/crop top combo, and the first time I thought one of the school mums was nekkid on the school run!) then I Just Don’t Care. I explained that most people are the same, they’ll notice but won’t give a toss. We’ll get to discussing how the way women are treated varies according to their looks when she’s older. I’m already angry that we will have to have that conversation.

I can and I do sometimes but it's not just that

I'm a very small guy too and I'm neurodivergent, when your cards are stacked against you all you can do is hope the right person will come along or just be glad there's animals for company.

I'm generally quite happy in my own company and even in a relationship I'd need my own time and space to a degree, but it would be nice to share life with someone.

Obviously you know nothing about the high personal beauty standards of South Korea or Brazil.

@StoatofDisarray

I'll ignore the provocative tone.
I'm quite familiar with the K-pop look, I'm just not quite sure if you're implying that I should embrace and accept my resemblance to that OR... well I'm really not sure what you are getting at here to be honest.

I consider myself very good looking but just not in the way women want

I think this is one of the biggest differences between men and women. I doubt 95%of women would EVER write that sentence. We just don't talk about ourselves that way.

It makes me realise even more that the differences between the sexes will never be bridged, however many bits on a person's body are cut off or added.

There's a transexual on Married at First Sight UK that is acting in their mind like a woman does, and is physically how one would think a woman wants to look. And says they can't understand why their partner doesn't fancy them.

And that attitude is EXACTLY why their partner doesn't fancy them. That entitled male attitude can't ever be expunged

@CosmicSoup There is no 'good looking in the way women want' at most there is 'good looking in the way many women want' or 'good looking enough that most women would find you attractive'.
Very few men fall into this category. Just as very few men are so physically repulsive (or so quirky strange special good looking!) no woman would ever want them.
When men say this, 9 times out of 10 they mean that they want a specific type of woman. A woman who is herself very physically attractive and so can have her pick. The give away is when they continue to complain that they lose out to 6 foot, good looking men in great shape. Because in reality, the average woman is not dating a man like that. The average looking woman typically dates an average looking man.
My point, if you are not a stunningly hot man, unless you are rich or powerful, you may not be able to attract a woman with the sort of looks you would prefer. So rather than moan about how shallow women are, be less shallow yourself and consider other aspects of women beyond how they look.

I'll get flamed for this, but I agree with the tone of this thread - wishing doesn't make things so! I'm all for dealing with reality, not some Utopian ideal.

I remember what 2 brilliant comedians/actors said. Jennifer Saunders says she decided to lose weight fairly early in her career because the difference in how seriously she was taken by BBC commissioning editors etc was immense. Sad but true.

Also, the wonderful Maxine Peake, whose first TV appearance was in Dinnerladies (when she was bigger than she is now) told her that Victoria Wood advised her to lose weight to further her career. Not because of the male gaze/patriarchy, but as above, because you get taken more seriously by both sexes.

It's definitely a thing as PPs have suggested. Anyone perceived to be overweight is open to judgement about 'letting themselves go' or 'not being in control'. It's unfair and unkind, but I have to say it's a fact in the real world. I've heard many people (women actually) express a similar view. Yes, I call them out - but it's a prevalent attitude - that's all I'm saying.

When men say this, 9 times out of 10 they mean that they want a specific type of woman. A woman who is herself very physically attractive and so can have her pick. The give away is when they continue to complain that they lose out to 6 foot, good looking men in great shape. Because in reality, the average woman is not dating a man like that. The average looking woman typically dates an average looking man.

I agree with your whole post but just wanted to highlight this part!

What are you suggesting that he does, emigrate?