To think it is actually mostly men?

[Nolpp]

Maybe I didn’t get the memo in the past but in the last year or so I’ve been so bitterly disappointed by make behaviour. I look back and wonder if it was always this way but I’m only just noticing. I think part of it is I recently became a single parent and so I’ve had more dealings with men than I would usually, as I’ve had to speak to insurance companies, take car for MOT etc. Obviously I did some of these things before and I know women also work in these places but overall I am having more interaction with men.

Examples…

Driving. Whenever a car is right up behind me it is ALWAYS a man driving. I drive at the speed limit, not under, so presumably they think speed limits don’t apply to them.

I recently donated to a sponsorship for cancer research, an old school friend, quite literally not spoken in over two decades. He then messaged me to thank me for the donation and followed it up with a question about sex and positions he can do after his surgery. Why would anyone think that’s ok?

A colleague, well respected in his industry, tells me when drunk on a night out that he wishes all women conformed to the way of the 50s and stayed at home. He wasn’t joking.

In Sainsbury’s a week ago, a man grabbed my arse in a queue, I was shocked and stepped to one side, didn’t know what to do and said get the fuck away from me. I was next up for the till and the man behind the till said he does it to everyone !!! What the actual fuck? He did follow up to say they had tried to ban him from the shop. I cried in the car afterwards, it was awful.

Waiting for the baby changing unit in Mc Donnalds. A man eventually emerges, mutters sorry but he couldn’t wait, and looked sheepish. He wasn’t unwell, he was downing a Mc flurry when I came out.

Around 7 years ago I used to date someone who had recently got a job as a Judge in the family courts. He was very young to have got this job and in part it was to do with his father being a judge in the same court. Anyway one day we were talking about how money is worked out in a divorce and he said ‘it’s disgusting, women expect to be paid out after staying at home doing nothing with kids for fifteen years, so rather than getting a job of their own they steal the x husband’s pension.’ I am ashamed to say I laughed and agreed with him. I had a good job with no interest in giving it up so I felt I was compatible with this man who I now see was a bit of a monster.

I honestly feel like men make up the bulk of shit behaviour. It probably sounds dramatic but I actually feel sad about it, genuinely sad. And embarrassed that it’s taken me until this late in life to see it.

Yes, I know it’s not all men.

Rant over.

But it sounds like you’re not one of them. That’s great.

I actually am, though. If I have given any other impression it was probably because I dread the responses from women who think men are lovely and don’t want to stir them up to produce anymore endless statistics and personal stories of male loveliness.

My experiences with men have made me fearful.

On top of that I can’t stand being talked down to by men. (it happens every day in one form or another). I once stood my ground with a stranger who told me I thought I was a man, meaning that I should know my place. No, thank you. Part of my exh’s rage was to do with my success and his perceived lack of it. This is patriarchy at its finest with expectations placed on
men and them taking it out on women when it doesn’t go ther way - or for any reason, really.

I honestly don’t know how women can stand to live with men.

I have hope in the next generation of men who are being forced to question toxic masculinity, although the popularity of Andrew Tate and other fuckwits doesn’t bode well.

I think your crusade should be for men to stop hating on women.

I “crusade” for both. They’re not mutually exclusive.

Read a very interesting article a while back by a woman that ran a charity for men’s mental health but when she set up a charity for women’s issues she got abuse from men. No abuse whatsoever from women for her charitable work on men’s mental health. Was a depressing read.

I hope you haven't got Sons.

And I can believe it so easily.
What is the bull shit I hope you haven't got sons". I've got a son. I'm not blind though. My son has been intimidating to me at home. I had to arrange for him to leave. He hates me. Takes zero responsibility for his own behaviour.

You can't parent maleness out of son's.
My son never had anything but love and support from me but he treated me like shit whenever I stood up to him.
I've no illusions.
Am I the only one who has a son and is disappointed to see that despite all the love and support he got, he hates me/ (women?).

Well my Son has never shown me any aggression and neither has my Husband. You can get as angry as you want. You can't force women who have loving relationships with men to come on board and say that we should be scared of all men.

Don't call me niave or stupid. I've been on this earth long enough, my first boyfriend was abusive and I live a very sociable life.

Yes, I'm fully aware how dangerous some men are but writing off 50% of humans is not something I'm going to do.

Sorry your Son is a dickhead but this is not what me and my friends are experiencing.

So pointing out patterns of behaviour that SOME (many) men display and more worryingly our culture generally endorses means I hate all individual men including your own family ? Sorry but I don’t think you fully understand how comment and discussion work.

Well and there are physical realities that are a huge part of that. A woman isn't a coward or an idiot because she is too small to lift and carry a 200 lb person down a flight of stairs in a burning house, but the "more men are firefighters" argument is that women are too lazy, stupid, cowardly and entitled to be firefighters. It's unsafe for a 150 lb woman to try to carry someone passed out through a burning building, she simply doesn't have the strength and then TWO people have to be rescued

I work in the fire service. it is not, and hasn’t been for a couple of decades a requirement for firefighters (either male or female) to carry casualties singlehanded. Where a casualty is ambulatory they are assisted/led out, and if they are injured or unconscious, they are removed on a stretcher using pulleys if necessary. With improvements in equipment and technology, you no longer need to be a six foot white man to be a firefighter. Actually, women can be a huge benefit to a watch as their smaller stature means they can get into tight spots easier than some men. This is not to say that nearly 30 years after women were able to take on operational roles they are not still struggling. Last year a cultural review of our service revealed women are still dealing with some horrendous discrimination and poor treatment. I was in a meeting only last week where we were discussing how essential PPE is still unsuitable- everything from too big gloves and boots, poorly fitting workwear trousers and so on.
As others have said, operational women in the military and emergency services have far more challenges to deal with than just their dangerous jobs.

I'm sorry you are going through this. Try to ignore the societal bullshit making it your fault. How old is your son? Teenage boys are hard work and it's so confusing for them growing up these days. I don't know what the answer is but solidarity

I read about the Grace Hopper event today and I'm so mad. I try to be #notallmen but it's just getting damn difficult.

Was that aimed at me?

I'm not saying you but others posters have not said some/most men they have said all men.

A poster actually said she doesn't understand how anyone can live with a man. Other posters are talking as if we are stupid and niave.

I would pull up any family member or male friend or colleague if I thought they were being misogynistic. Especially my Son.

I don't know what the answer is and I would join in and help if I could help change how these violent men are. I don't turn a blind eye.

I was once a 20 year old being strangled by my first boyfriend. I bumped into him years later and he tried to act as a long lost friend. I soon let him know not to try and speak to me.

How are you going to persuade women to feel safe walking home at night?

Best people to ask are men. 😂 They manage despite being 4x more at risk.

Walking to school when I was 13. Turned a corner and a man was masturbating and staring at me intensely.

Got followed home from the pub aged 18. Thought I’d lost him but he suddenly ran out from behind some bushes. Thankfully I could run faster than him.

I have some lovely men in my life but I completely agree with you OP - it’s almost always men.

#notallmen misses the point. We KNOW it’s not ‘all’ men, but ALL men as a collective need to do better.

How does another man stop another man's behaviour? Just tell us and the women and the good men can do it. Problem solved.

Put all the bastards down when they are caught. Then you will get people saying you can't be too harsh on offenders.

You are talking about cherry picking but you're ignoring the evidence from the meta analysis (this is by far the better one to look at as it covers 1700 studies) that uni-directional violence it was more likely (double!) to be women perpetrating the violence.

You can ignore it all you like but the evidence is plain for all to see. In many instances men will not retaliate as they know they will be labelled a wife beater, which in most circles and cultures is totally unacceptable.
In fact it appears that the gender symmetry in levels of domestic violence is now pretty widely accepted, despite you being so aghast at it. The asymetry is in the harm caused, and cases of 'battering' which I appreciate is very important and is fairly unique to women.

I do think it raises some important questions. If men are the more violent sex (which is consistent with so much data we see, it's unarguable, more men commit crime, more men in prisons, more men fighting in bars, etc etc)
then why are we seeing such high levels of uni directional domestic violence being perpetrated by women, rather than men in domestic settings? Even if you include non violent abuse (name calling, emotional abuse etc) it is still a pretty shocking statistic.

I don't see why there needs to be a 'side' or a crusade. It's perfectly possible to be in both camps, and to see the huge challenges that both sexes face in life, some similar and some unique to each sex.

Respectfully, you can't tell me what my own experience is. Amongst the people I'm friends with, the people I am close to, (and I'm old enough to have quite a lot of experience) the pattern I tend to see fits with the evidence that I highlighted earlier. You're right that men are unlikely to tell me if they've hit a woman, but my female friends would likely tell me if they had been hit.

Anecdote is not evidence, but anecdote and personal experience is what tends to make people explore the data to see if it fits with their own experience, which is what I've done. I don't like to get swept along by current fashionable opinion, I like to investigate.

There are parts of society and some cultures where male violence against women is rife. In military families in that study I quoted, violence is far higher against women than vice versa, I totally recognise that, and I recognise that my own experience isn't reflective of all of society. It is hugely dependent on culture, socio-economic group, many factors. A small minority of men batter their wives and when they do it's horrific, but battering and one way abuse is in the minority.

When you say it's 'not what we are discussing' the thread has taken many twists and turns. It started with a title that 'its mainly men' and there was endless man bashing. So as a mother of sons, a sister, a daughter of a father and a friend of many lovely male friends, I really reject anti male rhetoric, in the same way I reject antj black rhetoric, anti Muslim rhetoric, anti gay rhetoric, anti woman rhetoric and all forms of bigotry. It's negative it's harmful and it further divides groups and generates and perpetuates hate.

I have seen a close friend suffer at the hands of his wife, from severe emotional abuse to physical abuse, and coercive control with the children. Both sides of the debate can generate emotional reactions depending on your own personal experience

But look at the posts here, the most angry ones, using extreme language like 'hang your head in fucking shame' etc, are the ones from the other side of the debate, trying to shut people down with acronyms and name calling. Doesn't do feminism any favours.

This is one thing that piss me off. Why won't anybody say what the nice men can do to stop the dangerous men.

Try & bring their Sons up to be respectful - Yes

Train the police better and only employ decent men - This would be great

Have better people in power- also would be great

Men become vigilante - not allowed

Put all the bastards down or put them in prison for a long time - not allowed

"Anti male" rhetoric (of which there is none on here that I've seen) would be more akin to anti white rhetoric, anti straight rhetoric and anti Christian rhetoric. AKA pretty fucking stupid.

Do I get all offended when gay people talk about straight privilege? No I don't, because I know how I cannot understand their experiences, and I don't have to go through what they have.

You don't even know how tone deaf you sound. Like crashing onto a thread about racism, and proclaiming white lives matter.

A small minority of men batter their wives and when they do it's horrific, but battering and one way abuse is in the minority.

This is like the rape stats.
One in four women suffering domestic violence (which means physical abuse).
Therefore there is no way this is a "small minority" of men.

For those asking why some posters are defending men, here's an analogy.

You've got a mate. One of her favourite topics is talking about the negative traits/behaviours of black people.

One day she informs you that black people are over represented at every stage of the criminal justice system according to ONS data.

Next time she's going on about knife crime and how it's mainly perpetrated by black youths.

Then the following time it's about black men and gun crime.

Then it's about black men and gangs/drug dealing.

After a while you think 'what is her bloody issue with black people? You ask her and she tells you that she was mugged and assaulted by a black youth and just can't trust them anymore.

I think most people would think the friend really needed some help to work through her issues.

Now replace the black people with men and you basically have the behaviour of many on here.

The stats show it's far from a small minority of women too.

Men don't tend to officially report it but when researchers start asking in surveys across hundreds of thousands of people the true patterns become clear.

Little Nigel (Harmen) going about his little sensible non abusive life getting tarnished with the same brush. He could become Steven Amell The Arrow in the evening to prove he's not a fucking bastard.