To think it is actually mostly men?

[Nolpp]

Maybe I didn’t get the memo in the past but in the last year or so I’ve been so bitterly disappointed by make behaviour. I look back and wonder if it was always this way but I’m only just noticing. I think part of it is I recently became a single parent and so I’ve had more dealings with men than I would usually, as I’ve had to speak to insurance companies, take car for MOT etc. Obviously I did some of these things before and I know women also work in these places but overall I am having more interaction with men.

Examples…

Driving. Whenever a car is right up behind me it is ALWAYS a man driving. I drive at the speed limit, not under, so presumably they think speed limits don’t apply to them.

I recently donated to a sponsorship for cancer research, an old school friend, quite literally not spoken in over two decades. He then messaged me to thank me for the donation and followed it up with a question about sex and positions he can do after his surgery. Why would anyone think that’s ok?

A colleague, well respected in his industry, tells me when drunk on a night out that he wishes all women conformed to the way of the 50s and stayed at home. He wasn’t joking.

In Sainsbury’s a week ago, a man grabbed my arse in a queue, I was shocked and stepped to one side, didn’t know what to do and said get the fuck away from me. I was next up for the till and the man behind the till said he does it to everyone !!! What the actual fuck? He did follow up to say they had tried to ban him from the shop. I cried in the car afterwards, it was awful.

Waiting for the baby changing unit in Mc Donnalds. A man eventually emerges, mutters sorry but he couldn’t wait, and looked sheepish. He wasn’t unwell, he was downing a Mc flurry when I came out.

Around 7 years ago I used to date someone who had recently got a job as a Judge in the family courts. He was very young to have got this job and in part it was to do with his father being a judge in the same court. Anyway one day we were talking about how money is worked out in a divorce and he said ‘it’s disgusting, women expect to be paid out after staying at home doing nothing with kids for fifteen years, so rather than getting a job of their own they steal the x husband’s pension.’ I am ashamed to say I laughed and agreed with him. I had a good job with no interest in giving it up so I felt I was compatible with this man who I now see was a bit of a monster.

I honestly feel like men make up the bulk of shit behaviour. It probably sounds dramatic but I actually feel sad about it, genuinely sad. And embarrassed that it’s taken me until this late in life to see it.

Yes, I know it’s not all men.

Rant over.

I refuse to watch anymore tv shows where women are being killed. Seeing women killed seems to be big tv entertainment by tv execs. It obviously pulls in the viewers but its just titillation. There is a new dramatised Yorkshire Ripper show starting. The subject has been done over and over. Why again? Another chance to show a programme where once again women ate being hurt and killed.

Can you please stop this? Your posts are spoiling the thread. You are wilfully not getting the gist of many of the posts. And now you sound like a bully. You also sound like a man. A creepy stalkery one at that.

Refusing to watch content depicting violence against women does not change the consensus. Arguably the study of the disproportionately violent acts against women throughout human history addresses the oppression against women. At the very least, women themselves are forced to confront the reality of the world they live in.

I won’t be watching either.

I agree OP. I would not mourn a world with men if they all disappeared tomorrow.

my DH used to be a firefighter. The stories he told me about the vast majority of firefighters he worked with would make ya blood run cold. They're not a paragon of virtue and heroic intentions - most are complete arses who have just the kind of attitude the OP describes as well as being prolific watchers of porn.....at work......

I agree with the sentiment here - and yeah yeah yeah not all men. My dad, my husband, my friend aren't - but they still live in the patriarchy and although my husband is horrified by russell brand for example he still doesn't get it. He doesnt see its a societal issue or a men's issue like I do. Until the 'good men' stand together and say hey we have a problem with our sex and our behaviour how can we genuinely address it so so
many of us aren't abusive and entitled ? we won't be able to resolve society for the better

The Politics of Breastfeeding goes into this too. It’s interesting how men have inserted themselves into positions of control over all aspects of pregnancy, birth and child feeding, when they are all solely female activities.

I think that’s the book that first opened my eyes, and they’ve been opening wider and wider since.

The ability to grow a human being is utterly unique to women - our entire physiology is centred around it. Never underestimate how much men resent women for this - the one thing they cannot do

Misandry and misogyny are not comparable at all (someone mentioned MN being a misandrist hate group (😂) up thread).

Misogyny means women are hurt and killed by men, means we are not well represented in health care (51% of the population but we're still not seen as default humans?), we’re paid less for the same work, we are default carers (of our children, of elderly parents), we’re less likely to be safe in cars (it was only in 2011 when female size/weight distribution crash test dummies were first introduced), means that we’re more likely to be left to bring up children alone than men.

Misandry means we avoid men. That’s it. Men are not disadvantaged at all by women declaring they hate all men. If this builds up to a point where they are worried, well, perhaps they should do something about it.

Yes!
Like I’ve said, once you see it you can’t unsee it.

It hasn't been the case for me as I have been tormented by mostly females.

Exactly - hatred is subjective - those without any power hating their oppressors has no impact in reality. But patriarchy is only effective as long as women believe they are free and not slaves - that's why it's so dangerous and so difficult to defeat

Yes! I avoid men. I am friendly with many but, as far as I am able to, ensure that they do not play a huge part in my life.

it has been weird reading some posters in this thread who have cast this avoidance as a vile act of hatred. Perhaps that says more about them.

a) did you read the actual study? or b) did you just read the Daily Mail's editoralising of the study?

The answer is b) you didn't read the study. Because the link you posted does not state what the study found. Argh, can women just read the so-called evidence that supports their in-house misogyny before they post?

Aside from anything else, I'm not sure what a study which looks at 400 North American University professors tells us about men and women in the Global workplace ...

Here is the actual study

I have this morning pondered about the women on this thread that have wonderful fathers, husbands and brothers. Obviously I totally believe their experiences but I wonder if being born to a good man and having a strong sense of what that looks like protects them from the worst of my experiences. If you are born to a good dad, I guess you are more likely to know what a good man looks like - as are your siblings. So you grow up with a family that has a culture of seeking out good men. And for those of us that didn't - the opposite is true also. I mean obviously I am really happy for those who only have good men in their lives but it does kinda mean that in order for all of this to happen, you need to be protected from birth by men - which is also structural patriarchy no? My experiences with men across the board are pretty bad and I do think that its a bit shite that in an indirect way, men are controlling this dynamic also. You hear it a lot on here - women who have good men in their lives and cannot fathom how other women make such poor choices about their partners. They really seem to think that avoiding violence and abuse is much more simple than it is.

The thing is this is not just about you. You may inhabit a world where you have never been abused or assaulted by a man, may never have had to fight to be heard or promoted or receive fair pay in a male dominated (in terms of power) workplace; you may never have had your views undermined by a man, or even experienced a single misogynist micro aggression.

But the thing is that millions of women have and surely you see that?

As for your having been tormented by women I am very sorry to hear that. I myself have had run ins with vicious women, but for the most part those women have not been in positions of real authority or power - no matter their delusions around this- and if they were they are still held within a patriarchal power structure which affects us all in different ways (with some women taking on its more toxic elements).

I would have reported the man in sainsburys for assault. They have cctv.

Continuing on from the discussion around gorilla society, our two closest relatives are chimpanzees and bonobos. Chimpanzees are a male dominated society characterised by sex and violence. Bonobos are a matriarchal society and the most peaceful amongst all the great apes. The matriarchs protect younger females from the unwanted sexual advances of males.

I find this marked difference fascinating and I think we could learn a lot from them. How different things could be if we had a matriarchy rather than the patriarchy. Maybe one day…

To be fair, bonobos maintain their social harmony by pretty much everyone having sex with everyone else on a more or less constant basis 😆 Frans de Waal (sp?) is very interesting on this, and his books feature some of the most hilarious pictures of bonobos doing all the many and varied things bonobos do (including "penis fencing" between males to settle dominance disputes without violence).

Not sure how keen most women would be to maintain social harmony by this methodology! But it's true there is a lot to be learned from the differing approaches to conflict resolution and status maintenance between the two types of ape.

I think that is a very strange and unfair leap to make.
You don't need to be 'protected' by men at birth. We are all products of our background, trauma can occur at a young age from both mothers and fathers and leave a lifelong imprint. There are plenty of stories of abusive mothers and step mothers too.

I am really sorry that you've had such a bad experience with the men in your life, it must be very difficult to deal with.
My experience has been the total opposite. Absolutely wonderful men in my life, from father to brother to brother in law and father in law. My FIL is the gentlest kindest man you could ever hope to meet and my own dad loves me unconditionally and would drop everything at a minutes notice to help me.
However I have had appalling experiences with women. I was quite pretty as a teen (not anymore!) and the jealous and bitchiness at school was horrific. I had someone chasing me round school smashing eggs into my head.
I had a girl at uni sneak into my room and gradually damage my possessions one by one, and stole my diary and read bits to people to turn people against me. I was in a toxic group of women in a mainly female office. I had a girl on a night out threaten to stamp on my face with her high heels. I've witnessed unbelievable cruelty to girls by other girls at school, far beyond what I've seen by boys.
I'm not saying women are worse than men, but just that everyone has different experiences. Men are more naturally physically aggressive and more likely to commit crime, there's no denying that, but cruelty can come in many forms.
I admit that I am wary of being out alone at night, so I do have a natural fear of dangerous men, which is awful and something we shouldn't have to deal with, but I am also wary of groups of women, I would never want to be part of a female only group of friends due to past experiences, but that doesn't mean I don't have some wonderful female friends.
We really should avoid tarring people with the same brush it's very negative and damaging.

@rolypolyholymoly - the hypothesis doesn’t hold for me. My father was and is incredibly loving and supportive, did the bulk of cooking when mum returned to work and took an active part in raising us. His own father was distant and violent; he actively chose a different path.

It was outside the home my experience were awful: 17 year old son of family friends, senior volunteer at drama club, boss at the pub I worked in etc etc.

@RichardArmitagesWife fair enough, I was just musing as to how some women avoid the life long experiences I have had.

Since October 2018, 71 paramedics have been struck off the HCPC register.

90% of those are men.
Of that 90%……48% were struck off for sexual or abusive offences, including rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment of colleagues or patients, child sex abuse, possession of or production of indecent images of children, physical assault, threatening or abusive behaviour.
The other reasons range from competence, conduct, physical/mental health, and police convictions (drink or dangerous driving, fraud, forgery, theft, possessing an offensive weapon).

And that’s just the ones that have been caught/reported and referred to the HCPC. It’s telling that in my Trust there has been a sexual safety at work campaign and charter introduced only fairly recently.

It’s not all male paramedics……but it’s definitely far too many.

In comparison the 10% that are women were struck off for physical or mental health problems impairing their fitness to practice, incompetence or general conduct, and one for stealing drugs.

And just for context, there isn’t much difference in the split of male / female paramedics. In Dec 2021 there were 5000 more male paramedics than female.

@rolypolyholymoly I am sure our upbringing definitely plays a role, but not a determining one on its own. Siblings turning out different should be evidence of that. Then of course two people can have the same experience and interpret it differently as well. I agree that a woman shouldn't need the protection of men against other men

I don't think it helps to focus on individual experience too much, to be fair. Patterns of behaviour, laws, the system generally is more interesting. I try to form my views from as many peoples experiences as possible, and read as many different analysis as I can, to try and get the best understanding possible. Partially why it saddens me to see people being so dismissive about other people's experiences. Particularly so in a place like this where our knowledge of each other is limited to sharing only small amounts, in a very condensed form