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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it is actually mostly men?

1000 replies

Nolpp · 26/09/2023 18:48

Maybe I didn’t get the memo in the past but in the last year or so I’ve been so bitterly disappointed by make behaviour. I look back and wonder if it was always this way but I’m only just noticing. I think part of it is I recently became a single parent and so I’ve had more dealings with men than I would usually, as I’ve had to speak to insurance companies, take car for MOT etc. Obviously I did some of these things before and I know women also work in these places but overall I am having more interaction with men.

Examples…

Driving. Whenever a car is right up behind me it is ALWAYS a man driving. I drive at the speed limit, not under, so presumably they think speed limits don’t apply to them.

I recently donated to a sponsorship for cancer research, an old school friend, quite literally not spoken in over two decades. He then messaged me to thank me for the donation and followed it up with a question about sex and positions he can do after his surgery. Why would anyone think that’s ok?

A colleague, well respected in his industry, tells me when drunk on a night out that he wishes all women conformed to the way of the 50s and stayed at home. He wasn’t joking.

In Sainsbury’s a week ago, a man grabbed my arse in a queue, I was shocked and stepped to one side, didn’t know what to do and said get the fuck away from me. I was next up for the till and the man behind the till said he does it to everyone !!! What the actual fuck? He did follow up to say they had tried to ban him from the shop. I cried in the car afterwards, it was awful.

Waiting for the baby changing unit in Mc Donnalds. A man eventually emerges, mutters sorry but he couldn’t wait, and looked sheepish. He wasn’t unwell, he was downing a Mc flurry when I came out.

Around 7 years ago I used to date someone who had recently got a job as a Judge in the family courts. He was very young to have got this job and in part it was to do with his father being a judge in the same court. Anyway one day we were talking about how money is worked out in a divorce and he said ‘it’s disgusting, women expect to be paid out after staying at home doing nothing with kids for fifteen years, so rather than getting a job of their own they steal the x husband’s pension.’ I am ashamed to say I laughed and agreed with him. I had a good job with no interest in giving it up so I felt I was compatible with this man who I now see was a bit of a monster.

I honestly feel like men make up the bulk of shit behaviour. It probably sounds dramatic but I actually feel sad about it, genuinely sad. And embarrassed that it’s taken me until this late in life to see it.

Yes, I know it’s not all men.

Rant over.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
HelenFisksBrownSuit · 27/09/2023 09:29

They are a class of people fundamentally unsuited to modern life. It's no wonder the Y chromosome is dying.

PaulaZackMayo · 27/09/2023 09:30

inamarina · 27/09/2023 08:42

So you‘re putting a woman down because her experience with men is different to yours?

you are probably too busy sucking up to them
Either that or they perceive you to not be a threat - which from your posts, makes complete sense.

How condescending! So there’s no way that PP might actually be well respected by her male colleagues, because that’s not what you‘ve experienced?

I don't suck up to men.

I certainly won't suck up to women either especially the ones who get angry when I don't agree with them.

PaulaZackMayo · 27/09/2023 09:31

@inamarina thank you.

KitchenSinkLlama · 27/09/2023 09:32

Mediocre men riddled with testosterone that makes them think they are gods.

Startingagainandagain · 27/09/2023 09:33

''@Dotjones

A male colleague once explained their point of view and it kind of makes sense. The gist was:
Men know they're terrible but also know women are terrible too.
Women know men are terrible but don't realise women are terrible too.''

Logic tells you that it is not that simple...

Women on the whole don't rape, assault, kill or hit partners or strangers...men do.

They also don't consume violent/degrading porn like men do.

They don't abuse kids like men do.

They don't perv on teenagers like men do.

They don't leave their kids behind to move on to a new relationship like men do.

Women don't rule the world and make it a violent, insecure place where money is all that matters. That is the world that men built.

Yes, there are some truly unpleasant women in this world but suggesting that men and women cause an equal amount of harm is simply untrue.

ConstantChangerOfNames31 · 27/09/2023 09:48

We could never do it, but did anyone ever read about the aggressive baboons or monkeys? ( cant remember which )

All the males were aggressive and one day they all ate somthing that was poisonous. So then all the adult males died. The females then went on to raise the babies without any Male aggression and then all those babies grew to be "nice" too

It's a shame we cant do that with men. We would have to kill them too, they couldnt be sent to an island unless we were going to cage them in as there would be loads of them and they might devise a plan to over power us 😂😂

MrsTwartle · 27/09/2023 09:56

ConstantChangerOfNames31 · 27/09/2023 09:48

We could never do it, but did anyone ever read about the aggressive baboons or monkeys? ( cant remember which )

All the males were aggressive and one day they all ate somthing that was poisonous. So then all the adult males died. The females then went on to raise the babies without any Male aggression and then all those babies grew to be "nice" too

It's a shame we cant do that with men. We would have to kill them too, they couldnt be sent to an island unless we were going to cage them in as there would be loads of them and they might devise a plan to over power us 😂😂

It’s the garbage troop, if anyone wants to read more about it.

Ramalangadingdong · 27/09/2023 09:58

Natalya123 · 26/09/2023 23:22

The patriarchy might actually be the result of men's congeniality and women's inability to get on with each other. 🤔

It would be a mistake to think that we women aren’t also drawn into systemic sexism. Remember the whole thing about divide and conquer? Women fight each other for the crumbs that fall from the patriarchal table.

I am not surprised that women as well as men prefer male bosses. It is what we are all used to in a patriarchal society, and it just doesn’t feel or sound right to have a woman tell you what to do. I worked for a firm where if you as a woman went down to the admin office and asked them a question the mainly female department would be reluctant to help you and then you’d see them with the men, not only helping them but taking on admin tasks they would have been disgusted to undertake for a woman.

I have noticed that a female manager may be resented for making requests that nobody blinks an eye at if a man asks the same thing.

Gremlinsateit · 27/09/2023 09:58

@ConstantChangerOfNames31 I just googled this - baboons - how fascinating. Also an example of how patriarchy is bad for men too, in that the stress of the surviving males was reduced.

LodiDodi · 27/09/2023 10:01

Yeah definitely. It's very funny how most religions are set up to grant men the ultimate privilege and oppress women. All the most successful religions are the ones that are best at oppressing women. I was sitting in the sunshine a few weeks ago having a sandwich on my lunch break and this religious nut (a man) walked up to me and started questioning me on the afterlife and whether or not I had a bible. I'm an atheist so I politely said I don't believe personally and no I don't have one. He stated ranting about how I'll spend eternity in hell and from my perspective it was so odd (as well as annoying) to see the situation more objectively, a man picking on a woman for not behaving.

Minglingpringle · 27/09/2023 10:06

VeronicaSawyer89 · 26/09/2023 23:16

The key word here is "men".

I was responding to your point that people of a certain colour or race don’t make up 50% of the population and don’t commit the majority of violent or sexual crimes, seeming to suggest that the racism question I had raised could be ignored. I was making the point that black men DO appear to commit more crimes than white men.

So in your world view is it ok to dislike and distrust all black men more than you dislike and distrust all white men?

I was hoping that you would see the parallel between your own sexism and the racism which is so socially unacceptable.

And I think it is unacceptable for good reason. We have been trying to move away from these lazy generalisations (racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism and so on) for decades because not only do they damage the recipients, they also damage the people stirring up hatred, because the unintended consequence is the creation of divisions in society which result in overreactions and backlash.

Everyone who feels badly treated thinks they are justified in badly treating someone else, which just leads to an endless cycle of tit-for-tat.

Ramalangadingdong · 27/09/2023 10:11

Minglingpringle · 27/09/2023 10:06

I was responding to your point that people of a certain colour or race don’t make up 50% of the population and don’t commit the majority of violent or sexual crimes, seeming to suggest that the racism question I had raised could be ignored. I was making the point that black men DO appear to commit more crimes than white men.

So in your world view is it ok to dislike and distrust all black men more than you dislike and distrust all white men?

I was hoping that you would see the parallel between your own sexism and the racism which is so socially unacceptable.

And I think it is unacceptable for good reason. We have been trying to move away from these lazy generalisations (racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism and so on) for decades because not only do they damage the recipients, they also damage the people stirring up hatred, because the unintended consequence is the creation of divisions in society which result in overreactions and backlash.

Everyone who feels badly treated thinks they are justified in badly treating someone else, which just leads to an endless cycle of tit-for-tat.

I think you are taking us off track. Most of us are talking not only about the high profile cases of violence against and murder of women (have a look at the depressing website counting dead women) which lists all the women murdered by mostly men in the UK. We are talking about our lived experience of everyday misogyny which will not be reflected in any recorded statistics because in a man made world it is not a crime.

DaaamnYoullDo · 27/09/2023 10:17

I agree. There are few decent men in the world imo.

The other day I was driving down a 60 road, car in front was doing not.even 30 so I went to overtake. Loads of.space. car sped up to try to force me into oncoming traffic but I managed to pull in. Car then harrased and beeped until we got the traffic lights when the man got out of.his car and came and opened my car door. I was fucking terrified. New car, my old car used to lock the doors as soon as you started driving. Literally the only thing that stopped him from dragging me out was that his little girl was crying in the front seat and I just kept saying "your daughter is right there, she's scared." Then he got in his car and sped off before I could get a licence plate or think what to do. The idea that these men are just roaming around waiting for the tiniest excuse to attack people is terrifying.
I was driving to pick up my 2yo son, I can't bear to imagine that happening with him in the car.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 27/09/2023 10:22

Natalya123 · 26/09/2023 22:15

I agree.

If we look at the Sarah Everard case it's resulted in a massive distrust of male coppers. Oddly, the Lucy Letby case hasn't done the same for female nurses and gets largely ignored on here.

I think that's pretty obviously because Wayne Couzens is the tip of the misogynist abusive iceberg that is the Met, whereas Lucy Letby got so much coverage precisely BECAUSE what she did was so utterly shockingly unusual.

spookehtooth · 27/09/2023 10:23

Ramalangadingdong · 27/09/2023 09:58

It would be a mistake to think that we women aren’t also drawn into systemic sexism. Remember the whole thing about divide and conquer? Women fight each other for the crumbs that fall from the patriarchal table.

I am not surprised that women as well as men prefer male bosses. It is what we are all used to in a patriarchal society, and it just doesn’t feel or sound right to have a woman tell you what to do. I worked for a firm where if you as a woman went down to the admin office and asked them a question the mainly female department would be reluctant to help you and then you’d see them with the men, not only helping them but taking on admin tasks they would have been disgusted to undertake for a woman.

I have noticed that a female manager may be resented for making requests that nobody blinks an eye at if a man asks the same thing.

Yes, look at where gender intersects with class or financial power for example. The wealthier women can have conflicting interests due to friends and family. Among the poorer set there can be jealousy or a desire to attain the wealthier position. In the end, in so many ways different things intersect. The oppression and division can come from within as much as from outside influences. It's just women divided like this, men are too, the patriarchy has hierarchy, intersections and oppression of groups within it too

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 27/09/2023 10:32

WandaWonder · 26/09/2023 22:48

We see constant issues on here alone about the behaviour of women, eyes, MIL, New partners, mums, 'school mums' something someone did to them 20 years ago

So women are saints?

You know what else we see a lot of here on MN? Posts by women distraught after an encounter that is quite clearly rape, asking nervously "was this not OK?" and blaming themselves. Safe to assume in the majority of those cases no legal action taken, and that man has gone on to be one of the numerous sex offenders walking free and unfettered in our society due to the totally twisted misogynistic values that pervade our justice system, our society at large, and our very souls themselves to the point we don't even know when we've been treated unacceptably.

I'd take a bitchy MIL over that, any day of the week.

Women don't have to be saints to deserve to be free of male violence and the fear of male violence.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 27/09/2023 10:34

Minglingpringle · 26/09/2023 22:53

Black men are over-represented in jail. Do we write them off as irredeemably bad or do we ask how that situation has arisen, try to understand them as people and work towards a situation where it doesn’t need to be that way?

Correct for poverty and then come back to me.

ElonGates666 · 27/09/2023 10:39

MrsTwartle · 27/09/2023 09:56

It’s the garbage troop, if anyone wants to read more about it.

I wonder how that story ends. What happens to a troop that doesn't have any aggressive males? Would it be able to defend itself against another troop that does have aggressive males? Would it be able to defend itself against predators such as hyenas?

Animals have aggression for a reason. Not all animals are aggressive, but the ones that do pass on their genes to the next generation more and the trait spreads. I'm not saying that aggression is useful in males today, but it must have served some useful function in the past.

RadishesForYou · 27/09/2023 10:47

Well yes that's how it is. I wish you had called police on the Sainsbury's sex offender, what a fuckwit. I'm sorry that happened to you.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 27/09/2023 10:50

Natalya123 · 26/09/2023 23:04

Wayne Couzens and David Carrick are a dime a dozen in every single police force in the country!

Ok, so list me a copper from every single police force in the country that has kidnapped and murdered a woman.

Maybe not murders but here's a little sampling for you of the kind of men who litter our police forces, all convicted within the past year or so:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/22/former-met-police-officer-jailed-for-of-female-colleague-and-16-year-old-girl

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65177995

https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/13/manchester-police-officer-raped-sexually-assaulted-child-sentenced-19495601/

https://www.essex.police.uk/news/essex/news/news/2023/march/met-police-officer-guilty/

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/16/uk-charges-ex-police-watchdog-chief-with-raping-teenage-girl

https://news.met.police.uk/news/serving-officer-guilty-of-sexual-assault-469306

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/met-police-james-murray-rape-charge-b2394693.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c721xnlwzg0o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65105120

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/oct/19/hertfordshire-police-officer-found-guilty-raping-child-victim-powerful-testimony

https://news.sky.com/story/former-police-officer-found-guilty-of-five-counts-of-sexual-assault-and-15-counts-of-misconduct-12865118

Do you really want to suggest that there is NOT a serious issue with the way the police screen for and deal with rapists in their ranks?

Former Met police officer jailed for rape of female colleague and 16-year-old girl

Judge says force protected Adam Provan by ignoring officer’s complaints, allowing him to attack teenager

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/aug/22/former-met-police-officer-jailed-for-of-female-colleague-and-16-year-old-girl

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 27/09/2023 11:02

Glowie · 26/09/2023 23:47

Almost 2/3 of rape reports are dropped by the complainant before the case can be brought to court.

I daresay this contributes to the UK's 'low conviction rate'...

I shared a bunch of links just now to officers convicted of rape/SA. as i weeded among the articles, I found one pre-conviction where the guy pleaded not guilty in October 22, and the article said the case would be picked up again in April 23.

Just trying to imagine a rape victim walking around traumatised while her assailant is walking free, knows who she is, where she lives, and is VERY FUCKING PISSED OFF with her for prosecuting him...

I can sort of begin to imagine why a lot of cases don't make it as far as court, never mind conviction.

WhatATimeToBeAlive · 27/09/2023 11:07

YANBU. I often say to my DH what the fuck is wrong with men and he actually agrees with me.

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 27/09/2023 11:09

Glowie · 27/09/2023 00:36

Fascinating difference of self report when you change the wording. They clearly have very smart people in their university...
It's a pity we cannot read the full study without a login.

I would be interested to know how many women would force someone to sex if there were no consequences. I'd be surprised if the numbers were not comparable.

Something similar was done a while ago on the basis of The Purge (i.e. all crime legal for a day), and it was about 18% (about the same for men/women) who said they would do serious crimes like murders etc. if it was legal.

That's people for you.

Edited

I would be interested to know how many women would force someone to sex if there were no consequences. I'd be surprised if the numbers were not comparable.

There is literally zero basis for this belief of yours. Why do you hold it?

spookehtooth · 27/09/2023 11:13

@herewegoroundthebastardbush don't forget too, the culture that enables the headline grabbing stuff is also likely to be found exhibiting lesser but similarly undesirable behaviours. Also the hostile environment things such as unequal pay or inflexibility in workout hours without good reason etc. The murdering, abuse and assault doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's no badge of honour to be earnt by merely not killing, abusing or assaulting women

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