To not sign friends petition about school fees ?

[Whereforartthoudave]

Or more to the point tell her why I’m not?

friend grp - 3 families out of 9 send their kids to private school. One dad has decided to start a petition re Private schools losing their charity status - as in it’s not fair if they do. His DW has sent it round this morning.

Stupidly rather than just ignore it - when she said will you sign, I said, sorry no - Private schools are businesses not charities so I agree with the proposed change.

Now she wants to know WHY exactly.

YANBU - ignore it and don’t get into a bun fight over private versus state school. I’m not judging their choices but I don’t think the schools should have tax breaks.

YABU - tell her why. The why being I don’t agree with private schools at all, but her money her choice. And think it’s laughable that they have charity status when the majority ( and this is backed up by actual stats) do virtually nothing to earn it.

Only 7 percent of kids go to private school. Average class size is 26 that's about an extra 1.8 kids per class. Where is this 5 from?

So you’d like to do away with private schools as you don’t believe in them, so let’s say that happened, where do all these kids go. Parents paying for private schools still pay taxes that go towards your kids education, they probably have private medical and dentistry as well , all relieving the state system.

The damage private schools cause to the wider population out way any relieving particularly when you consider how small the numbers are.

My children were and are in need - they receive bursaries. We are working class. My children are nothing special academically however after investigation it was private schooling which came forward to support me and my children through difficult times.
Not all private schools are elitist.

It would raise £1.6bn a year for state schools.

The institute for fiscal studies estimate around 3-7% reduction in private school attendance as a result.

There is an upcoming 100k spaces of overcapacity in state schools so accommodating these extra pupils would be fine.

The cost of educating the additional pupils would be ~ £100-300 million a year.

This leaves a net benefit of £1.3billion for state schools.

Strikes me as a great idea.

It’s just another blow against family autonomy.

State schools are immoral. The State should not be dictating where you child goes, what he learns or how he is taught.

Competition between independent providers would improve standards.

But it’s more fundamental than standards. Government schools are an abuse.

What would raise £1.6bil?

Because unless I've misplaced a decimal point, that works out at under £90 per pupil per term across the current private school population, and I think that would be easily absorbed into normal fee increases. It's less than has been previously calculated (I'd thought it was about £200)

The 100k state places likely to be surplus are concentrated in primary schools, where the private school proportion is much lower than the headline 5-7% (varies by source) - the efflux of pupils could occur and any age, and the first stressor will be year 7 (where parents decide not to start private after all), and of course the places where there are surplus state places may well not be in the towns and cities where new ones are needed.

£7460 per pupil for a state secondary place (might vary between home nations), v £270 per pupil per year of those who stay in situ. So for every pupil who joins the state sector, you need 27 to remain private just to break even (assuming you can accommodate them in existing vacancies). So anything more than 4% leaving the private system increases the cost to the tax payer more than the revenue expected to be generated.

If any new places have to be built in eg cities, where more than the national average number of pupils attend private schools and spare capacity is considerably narrower than the nationwide picture, then this policy may be at best a break-even one, ans quite possibly one that requires increases to the schools budget beyond projected additional tax gain

Surprised how many posters are referencing "state schools wouldn't know what has got them" as a reason why private schools need to retain charitable status.

Private schools are not all charities, they're really not. It's a historic anomaly. They are places where hereditary privilege is passed down the generations.

I wouldn't care as much if it weren't for the fact that public school kids are so entitled and obnoxious. I am from a very respectable family but went to state school. We got the bus with kids from the private "grammar" school.

We got talking to them a few times. They were so condescending, essentially told us that they saw us as a lower form of life. That seems to be done kind of badge of honour in fee paying schools - "effortless superiority ".

My daughter has just started at a prestigious university with A* grades, after a lifetime of academic success and achievement. Even though her accent is indistinguishable, they keep asking her probing questions about where she "summers", skis, what sports she plays, etc - questions clearly designed to place her in the class pecking order.

We've got to stop this nonsense, it's really unhelpful to us as a nation. We're stagnating in a pool of an overprivileged minority. The end of charitable status is of no harm to anyone in a state school so pull the other one!

I’m a private school parent but definitely sympathise with the view that the private school system is pretty unfair. It is. And I firmly believe that all children should be able to get a great education. Unfortunately though, our state secondary options were not that great, so we’re doing private because we are fortunate enough to be able to do so and because my childrens future will always trump any idealistic ideas I may have of how education should be.

BUT to level the playing field a little bit, I can see why you need to change things up. I personally think private schools should be put under far more pressure to share facilities, events, initiatives with their local state schools. Ours does a bit of this but undoubtedly could do much more.

If labour do decide to charge VAT, then I hope they stagger it, so that private school parents can budget for it and there is not a big influx into the state system.

will charitable status also be removed from the academies?

If you believe the figures. And indeed if you believe this isn’t merely a bone being thrown to the party base.

https://www.edsk.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/EDSK-VAT-on-private-school-fees.pdf

private schools have average 26 students? my DC's private school had max 15 pupils per class, and many classes had fewer. We were forced into private school since we moved back to UK in a non-intake year, and not a single state school would take him.

Totally agree with OPprivate education is nothing short of subsidies for the wealthy. The situation of state schools in many parts of the UK is appallingthe subsidies should be aimed there. A pity that when the health system was nationalised, that the educational system wasn't also.
The private education system simply reproduces the divisive class system that harms the UK in countless ways.

It is a big deal. It's not just VAT they'd be liable for, corporation tax, apprentice scheme levies, plus inflation adjustment which is all passed onto families. For many families this becomes unaffordable, can the state system handle the additional strain? It's naive to think private school families will go to state and suddenly try to improve these schools, they want a hands off option. Many will get private tutors or use edtechs. Also means the thousands of foreign students that take up private school places with a view of going to university here, and paying triple the fees, will look at other countries. So another big income stream gone. The constant focus on class and privilege will leave the UK poor. And I'm saying this as a minority woman!

Ah, this would be why they’ve announced the VAT plan:

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/labour-u-turns-plans-end-private-schools-charitable-status-still-impose-20-vat-charge-2646305

Labour have u-turned on ending the charitable status of private schools. Shocking, that.

@Scaevola £1.6b divided across 615k private pupils is more like £2600 per pupil per year. Not sure where your £90 comes from?

If 20% of those private pupils moved to state (way more than estimates suggest) it's about 1% extra in the state system. Sounds manageable to me.

I'm not worried my kids school would be inundated, it's oversubscribed so they'd go elsewhere.

I would sympathise with parents who couldn't cope with the increased fees, just as I do now as fees have risen sharply but on balance that's offset by the benefit to the state sector.

Here's a post I made back in April - I didn't expect them to be so blatant about U-turn to end pledge on changes to charity law, nor did I expect it to happen so quickly!

Yes, I expect that Labour will announce they there will be some sort of study in to the complexities of changing status, and that it's date to report will be pushed back (and gradually 'forgotten' about) and that instead they will announce VAT on fees. Salami style, I expect. So probably not straight to 20%, more like 5% (and then increase in frog-boiling increments)

I wondered if I'd dropped a zero and you meant VAT on school fees postulated at around the £16-18K mark - you'll note it was £90 per term so £270 per year, which being out by one decimal place is much the same as your figure (you're using a higher estimate of number in sector)

Still doesn't add up well though, does it?

By the time you've netted off the basic cost of pupil per head funding of new places for leavers (not allowing for any expansion in the cities and towns where there aren't spare school places, nor for those not electing to leave the sector but having to do so because some schools become unviable and closures will leave even more seeking places) you're left with an increase to the Education budget that is under 1% (and which will then be sliced up to all the devolved nations, and I'm not sure how that interplay with devolved responsibility and central funding works on this one)

And of course none of that cover the issues around specialist schools for additional needs - whose fees are amongst the highest, and so additional VAT bill would be greatest, and so perhaps will have a disproportionately large number of leavers. Who will cost significantly more in the state sector than an ordinary transferring pupil, and there most definitely isn't a surplus of places of this type (if anything, there's a woeful undersupply)

They absolutely are businesses

very few live up to their promises

I wouldn’t sign such a petition It’s a huge privilege for your child/children to go to private school

my ds is at private school and thankfully has the awareness of how privileged he is sadly many children are not so aware because their parents choose to ignore this fact

‘(state-educated plus state educated kids, but before you get too judgmental about it, consider if your school would cope if there were eg 5 extra kids in every class. )’

i love that private parents think they’ll somehow just demand their way in to schools that are over subscribed.
You’ll be given places in the schools that aren’t - there are plenty.

And as for class sizes- in DCsSecondary state school they’re in classes of 15 -20 for most subjects now .
less for languages like German or Mandarin.

I found this helpful the other day when my exDH asked me what I thought about something (not related to our DC. Something contentious though which I knew we disagreed about).

I said I thought that no good would come from a discussion about it. We didn’t agree and neither would change the other’s view and a discussion would only be difficult and potentially create an argument. I went on to give him my opinion on the matter. He then gave me his opinion. I said “I gave you my opinion because you asked me for it. I didn’t ask for yours because that would be a discussion and I’ve been clear that I don’t want a discussion about it”.

I didn’t hear another word about it.

Explain your point of view to her in a calm way. We are allowed different opinions and you mightn't like hers but it's not something to fall out over. You might even want to sign it for her kids benefit even if it's not your view for your kids.

You wouldn't like mine of abolishing state schools as they stand and making them all charities that receive some government funding with parents expected to pay the rest. If not paid it becomes like CSA attachment of earnings. Might encourage parents to make their kids behave.

Bursaries could then be offered to kids who parents can't afford the best schools stopping the house price war for the best schools. Charities could run schools in deprived areas totally for free to parents if they can fund it.

That's coming from a mum currently debating faith vs moving for outstanding state vs private.

Wow that's defo not the case around here.

Minimum class sizes are 30 and you will find that if private schools lost a number of students and therefore the demand for state spaces went up that yes they would be at over subscribed schools as in many situations there is no where else they can go.

The situation you are describing is very different to many schools around the UK

Tell her why and then day 'we all have our opinions ' And don't get into any further discussion.
Her opinion isn't going to change your opnion

Op while you were asking for opinions they made a U turn. You may not see the “privilege pupils of private schools “taking the worst state schools left for them as you said.

@Scaevola did you read my post? The estimated cost to absorb the pupils who move from private to state is less than £300m

To net out the full VAT benefit would need over a third of private kids to move to state.

In addition the estimate is that there would still be close to £1b benefit because a big chunk of the £17k per year not spent on school fees when kids move would then be a boost to other goods and services which already pay VAT.