To not sign friends petition about school fees ?

[Whereforartthoudave]

Or more to the point tell her why I’m not?

friend grp - 3 families out of 9 send their kids to private school. One dad has decided to start a petition re Private schools losing their charity status - as in it’s not fair if they do. His DW has sent it round this morning.

Stupidly rather than just ignore it - when she said will you sign, I said, sorry no - Private schools are businesses not charities so I agree with the proposed change.

Now she wants to know WHY exactly.

YANBU - ignore it and don’t get into a bun fight over private versus state school. I’m not judging their choices but I don’t think the schools should have tax breaks.

YABU - tell her why. The why being I don’t agree with private schools at all, but her money her choice. And think it’s laughable that they have charity status when the majority ( and this is backed up by actual stats) do virtually nothing to earn it.

The reply you gave her when she asked you to sign it explained everything. Just copy and paste the same reply again and again if she keeps asking. Hopefully she will get the message and clear off!

As a private school educated person, with 5 children planning to attend private- I think they should be legally classed as businesses. I'd rather pay higher fees and support the school in finding funding for children whose families can't afford the fees.

Many parents cannot afford the fees as it is, and their child still attends. Loans, debt and working 2 jobs isn't always worth it.

But it's tricky to navigate when there's petitions being handed around playgrounds and play dates.

Yes why not tell them? If they are not willing to accept an alternative point of view they are not worth having as a friend.

You already told her why. Just repeat that and don't get into a further discussion. Also, she's the one causing an issue by handing out the petition to state schooling friends, silly person.

And you are right, of course.

It’s so glaringly obvious that private schools aren’t charities, on what planet would they be considered a charity?! LOL. You’ve objected and she’s asked why, have the courage of your convictions and state why you support the decision. I wouldn’t go into your opinion of private schools, that’s irrelevant. This isn’t a private vs public argument, it’s simply the removal of an unsuitable status granted wrongly in the first instance

Didn’t actually know until I read this post that they have charity status, that’s ludicrous

To be fair. If they are a business, what non massive business offers reduced rate access to their goods to the extent that some (I know not all, but ours does to a considerable extent) offer to those that cannot pay the full amount. So there is a charitable element. Whether you think it is enough is another matter. And whether, if they are no longer classed as charities current parents will be happy with their fees not only paying their own child’s costs, plus the proportion needed for longer term profits plus subsiding another child who does not pay full fees, is also another matter.

as I said, it was asked the other way round in my case. I could have frothed that that parent put their own (far greater levels of surplus) money in and not ask me, who was not using that service. But life’s too short and I just said i couldn’t afford to help. In much the same way as my charitable giving generally will have to stop if fees have vat imposed.

there will be consequences from whatever policies are brought in. Most parents have a finite amount of money and will have to repurpose it if they are fortunate enough to have enough to pay the fees in the first place. So the small business they would have used to buy local stuff from, the cleaner, the music teacher etc may all feel the effects by having lower demand. Every policy has its ripples and I guess those who feel the ripples are more likely to be concerned than those who feel they are not affected by it.

@qwertypots that is good of that school but very rare I think unfortunately

OP, you could say you want England to align with Scottish law: Last year saw an important tax relief on business rates for schools with charitable status removed (except for specialist schools for vulnerable children and others with special needs). In England and Wales, these schools still receive at least 80% relief on business rates.

I get their fees are going to go up,
possibly. But they’re ready going up by 7,8,10 % each year anyway. Nowt to do with Starmer.
they’re businesses so they should
Complain there, or take their ‘custom’ elsewhere. 4 kids in private school was always going to cost a lot.

This smells of jealousy

The friend can afford private.

Why so much hate?

I don't believe that if parents had the funds, they would choose state. Why would you? Don't you want the best for your kids? And all this shit about equality- bullshit. You win the lottery tomorrow, you would still send them to an oversubscribed school, 30 kids, bullying, chav mothers.

I say this as a person who wishes i had the funds to send my kids private.

Good for you if you can afford it.

Absolutely have the discussion.

Charities were not originally designed to be tax avoidance devices. Public schools were charities long before charities had tax advantages.

All charities should lose any tax benefits. So we get to the same answer.

Personally I think it’s immoral that the Govt has any involvement in education. Outcomes could be so much better for children if the monopoly and force were removed.

But the private school buildings, land, equipment etc are all privately owned, they couldn’t just be “absorbed”. They would have to be purchased.

Where would the vast funds come from to allow local councils to purchase struggling independent schools and pay all these extra teachers?

In much the same way as my charitable giving generally will have to stop if fees have vat imposed.

I can't stand these sort of veiled threats, they read like blackmail. Very rich people trying to hold the rest of the country to ransom because they might have to pay more money for something.

I'm sure there are lots of things you could stop buying for yourself - but no, if the government dares to stop pretending that private schools are charities, you'll stop giving any money to actual charities.

I'm amazed you don't see how this reads to other people.

Somehow, I doubt people who make this type of threat are actually giving that much to charity in any case. Maybe a token few quid a month or similar.

The value of charitable status was estimated by the Guardian to be worth about £200 per pupil per term (as various aspects change of the tax handling of the business side of running a school)

This will not force a major outflow of pupils - it's less than the amount fees vary between schools anyhow. Remember lots of schools operate as businesses, and their fees aren't hugely different.

VAT on fees totally different and unrelated to charitable status. This is not what Labour have been talking about, but I think it's what they will do for two reasons a) reworking charity law is going to be complex, riddled with potential for unintended effects on the charitable sector and b) if the aim is to raise money, then VAT on fees (which need not be limited to those which are charities) will raise far more)

BTW, in law, the provision of education is a charitable aim in itself.

That can't just be removed, because all other charities which depend on that as reason for some/all their activities would have to either cease, or refund them through non-charitable income streams.

You cannot use charitable funds for activities which are not part of your charitable aims (important safeguard against fraud and financial abuse)

You cannot just turn charitably owned assets into privately held ones (another hugely important safeguard)

It will be very interesting to see the exact Labour proposals on this. Maybe they will find a way through the pitfalls, but I've yet to see even a hint of how it would actually be carried out.

The jealousy argument is so lazy, how about all the people that can afford private but choose not to, are they 'jealous'? There is no way I'd sign that petition, I'd just ignore it

lolaandchai

The independent schools that will struggle will be many of the midrange and smaller day schools, especially where there is a cluster of independent schools together, competing for the same pupils. If a fall in pupil numbers and corresponding fee income means that these schools cannot pay their debts as they fall due, they will be insolvent. Their trustees will owe duties, including reporting duties to the charity commission, and will need to take steps to resolve the situation. During the last recession, on at least 3 occasions, the solution was absorption of the school into the state sector as an academy, with the teachers remaining in post under TUPE. A good outcome for existing parents, as they no longer need to pay fees and quite a good outcome for the local community.

Obviously the schools will have some saleable assets, and the question will be, what value the insolvency practitioner places on them and at what price to dispose of them to the new owner, bearing in mind the trustees’ duties (assuming they remain in post. It’s a volunteer position, so quite a few are likely to run for the hills in an insolvency situation.

Complicated, yes, but it is definitely the likely ‘fate’ of a cohort of the least financially comfortable day schools, although it will shore up the position of any independent schools that remain in that geographical radius.

Where a school cannot pay its debts as they fall due, a planned transfer of business that safeguards the education of the children is much better than a collapse into insolvency (which has also happened).

Ahem, if there were no private schools then we would all be equally invested in state education and our education system would improve for all. Look at Finland which has one of the best education systems in the world and no private schools. Facts to relay to your friend 👆

‘This smells of jealousy

The friend can afford private.

Why so much hate? ‘

No jealousy. DP and are are both very much WC/ low income backgrounds who did well at state schools and now in professions that would allow us to afford private schooling for DCs.
But, neither of us believe in it. We want our kids to learn alongside ordinary kids, not just privileged, wealthy kids. I genuinely believe state school is a much richer experience for them.

That wasn’t a veiled threat. We like many other parents at our school are not rolling in it, but have sufficient to pay the fees. We’re now looking at an extra 8k a year we had not budgeted for, as well as yearly price rises which we had. I have spent yesterday going through our spending working out what we can cut to allow our buffer for fees to last as long as it can until we get to a natural exit point - which for us is a levels. We are cutting back on everything - including spending on ourselves and others - in equal measure. No different to anyone else on the budgeting boards.

it’s not a veiled threat. There will be some that can afford this increase by just having less spare in savings every month. And there will be others (like us, and I understand a lot at our school) who are having to make very different decisions about how we spend the same size pot of money to minimise disruption to our kids lives. I am presuming that that has been taken into account when looking at the financial consequences of the policy. And if it has great, I’m just saying that we’re one of the ones who need to do it, and we’ve already started that process now, given that this looks like coming in.

some of that cutting in spending may have impacts on other peoples businesses etc etc in the same way that any one having to reduce spending does. I’ve assumed that any projections take account of that, plus any increased
spend on the education budget for pupils that either leave independent school or opt to stay in the state sector rather than going private. And that despite that it will still
raise revenue. In which case I guess those who would have benefitted from the additional spendings we’ve had to cut but who now don’t, either take the hit or find new customers.

I don't know how this is missed from so many arguments.

As if all those who value education enough to pay considerable amounts for a 'better' education are going to let their kids attend the local comp without any lobbying for more funds, better teacher recruitment etc. If everyone is invested there is far more pressure on politicians to improve state schools.

I’m not sure that makes sense though. If only 7% of parents choose private school, they are in the minority. If the 93% using it, also presumably invested in state education as that is their child’s experience, what will the 7% be able to do that is different to the current 93%? assuming that all care equally.

Elitism in Britain, 2019 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
"Britain’s most influential people are over 5 times more likely to have been to a fee-paying school than the general population. "

I assume these people would also privately educate their children.

Yes but they are also the ones who are most likely to still be able to afford the fees with annual increases and VAT on top. So I doubt those will be the additional ones attending state schools from now on.