To not sign friends petition about school fees ?

[Whereforartthoudave]

Or more to the point tell her why I’m not?

friend grp - 3 families out of 9 send their kids to private school. One dad has decided to start a petition re Private schools losing their charity status - as in it’s not fair if they do. His DW has sent it round this morning.

Stupidly rather than just ignore it - when she said will you sign, I said, sorry no - Private schools are businesses not charities so I agree with the proposed change.

Now she wants to know WHY exactly.

YANBU - ignore it and don’t get into a bun fight over private versus state school. I’m not judging their choices but I don’t think the schools should have tax breaks.

YABU - tell her why. The why being I don’t agree with private schools at all, but her money her choice. And think it’s laughable that they have charity status when the majority ( and this is backed up by actual stats) do virtually nothing to earn it.

I'm with you. These schools are businesses and should be treated as such. Well over due

Yeah I think OP's response was unnecessary and trying to cause conflict.

Just accept the link and don't respond.

I do love a good private school bashing thread. It never seems to occur to anyone that not everyone that sends their kids to private schools are cut from the same cloth.

I pay my kids school fees with the pensions they receive from their dead father’s pension fund. I couldn’t afford it otherwise.

Their dad walked out of the house into an ambulance one day when they were 7 and 9 and he never came home. There was no funeral, because it was the start of COVID.

Are they luckier than some kids who have also lost a parent? I am sure they are. I feel hugely for kids who have lost a parent and have to suffer financially too.

Am I buying them an advantage over state educated kids? No. I’m buying them a chance at a level playing field with kids who haven’t experienced one of the worst adverse childhood experiences imaginable.

I'm with you. These schools are businesses and should be treated as such. Well over due

I think there's a middle-ground, though: yes, they are businesses, but they're also saving the state a lot of money for unused education that has also been paid for by the parents.

Private schools are not and never would be a part of our lives, but I think there seems to be quite a lot of 'class hatred' and unfairly irrational logic when it comes to matters like this. I know it could and would never happen, but how would people feel if private school parents willingly accepted the VAT, but in return, demanded to pay less income tax on account of the state education that they are entitled to but not using?

It won't work like that though sadly, people with money will always use their money to position themselves in the catchment of the best state schools and pump money into tutoring to get their children the same advantage they would have had from a private school.

The most pragmatic thing to do in my view, is just let the private system get on with it and invest the money saved (from non enrolment in state school place) in the state system to uplift state education.

I think your reply can just reiterate what you already said.

I don't see private schools as charities. I see them as businesses. But I'm very sorry that you will be affected by the changes if they are brought in.

I too don't see private schools as charities. Providing food, clean water and clothes to those in need is charity to me. I do have sympathy with those already in private schools though because they've made a calculation on the current fees. My understanding is these changes are 2-3 years off anyway so it gives people time to prepare.

I would just not sign it. This is part of the manifesto of a political party who may or may Not take it forward! A lot of hoops for them to jump through first.

In fairness, this change has been under discussion for several years, so I imagine that the majority of private school parents will have already budgeted for it. Those that haven't planned for it are either those who don't think that moving their kids to state would be a massive problem or they're overstretching themselves by committing to school fees that they can't realistically afford for the duration. Regardless, it shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.

They can demand that all they like it won't happen, same as people won't get a reduction for using private health care.

Not paying VAT is a tax break which is being removed and our taxation system isn't pay per use and that's just the way it is.

Couldn't have put it better myself 👏👏👏

Unfortunately, Tory voters like to think all the wrong in their and other people's lives is the fault of labour or 'those lazy benefit scroungers who just don't work hard enough' and it's not likely to change soon, sadly.

Even the Telegraph article today on school fees has pointed out that the schools don’t have to put the ‘extra burden’ on parents.

‘Am I buying them an advantage over state educated kids? ‘

well, yes you are. That’s the exact point of privilege and it’s why most people
chose private schooling. They aren’t doing it to keep a level playing field.
Your money, your choice. Just don't expect others to agree with your choices.

Honestly, it wouldn't make much difference to our local state schools if the local private schools were forced to close. They don't have huge numbers of pupils anyway and the numbers would be dispersed across a significant number of local schools rather than all piling into just one or two. A few extra middle class kids with supportive parents really aren't going to break the state sector.

But I don't think many schools will close anyway. Most will find ways of cutting costs, and a lot of parents will find ways of paying the extra. A few might be forced into state, but I'm really not worried about the impact of that on state schools, it will be negligible.

Apologies for quoting rather than replying - for some reason the reply button doesn’t work for me.

The thing is that although 7% of children nationally are privately educated, that isn’t spread evenly across the country. In some areas it could be 0.5% and some it could be 25%. I live in an area where the proportion is really high, particularly at secondary level, and the state schools are overflowing, particularly at secondary level - the local authority relies on a certain percentage of kids being privately educated. In fact, the headteacher at my son’s state primary school advises families who can afford it (which does not include us) to go for private because the chances of getting into a local state secondary are already so low.

So it’s good that you don’t think that it’ll make much difference to your local schools, but there are areas where it could be really problematic.

I’m not so worried about private schools closing, but I do think there are areas in which even a relatively small influx of kids into state schools will be a disaster - and I also think that interest rates will start to bite over the next few years, so families who would previously have found the extra cash down the back of the sofa won’t necessarily be able to.

I don’t disagree conceptually with posters who say that private schools are businesses. But I think it’s worth asking why you support this change and what you think it will achieve.

It reminds me a bit of the Brexit debates - I was very strongly in favour of Remain and I used to have endless conversations with my dad (who voted Leave) where he would list all the things he didn’t like from an ideological point of view about the EU. But I would say to him that no one is saying the EU is perfect and beyond reproach, and also you don’t need to love it from an ideological point of view - you just need to understand that whatever its faults, life outside the EU will be much worse. He didn’t/wouldn’t understand that - and it is.

I think I would go with, "It's just not something I care about, and it only affects a minority of the population". That might be a deflection that doesn't spoil the friendship.

Nailed it

The schools would then be able to reclaim the VAT costs incurred in running the school (and this could very likely be something they could backdate), which is not an insignificant amount. They could also charge higher fees for the hiring out their facilities to local state schools.

What things do schools buy that have VAT put on them?

The biggest cost is staff salaries - no VAT

Books and textbooks - no VAT

Electricity - already 20%; fee paying schools can't claim the reduced charitable rate

Food for school lunches - if they're being cooked from scratch, there's no VAT on most of the ingredients

They would be charging far more in VAT on fees than they're ever able to reclaim, seeing as by far their biggest expenditure is on staff salaries.

Who is she petitioning? It won't matter how many signatures she has if labour win the General Election.

If you tell someone your opinion when asked, stating the reason (as you did) and they come back with why, they know why-they just want an argument and they don't accept your opinion.

...so I'd just repeat what you told her already

Building work, for example.

https://yorkshiretimes.co.uk/article/Private-Schools-VAT-And-Tax--Time-For-Class

“Moreover, if independent schools had to charge VAT on fees then they may become eligible to reclaim any VAT that the school incurred on recent large ‘capital’ (building or refurbishment) projects. Those independent schools that have built new swimming pools, sports halls, music rooms, drama studios, laboratories or lecture halls over the last decade could be in line for an unexpected tax windfall, which could make for some politically awkward headlines.”
https://capx.co/would-charging-vat-on-private-school-fees-really-raise-1-6bn/

She could counter with "taxing educational services is unethical."

Luckily, 'educational services' (schools) are available for free!

My children and GCs have left school, so no skin in the game. But, if a load of kids have to leave private school, and attend state ones, won't that make classes even more overloaded? 🤔

Converting struggling independent schools into academies and absorbing them ‘lock stock’ into the state system has been done before and is a pragmatic answer for those independent schools who face very significant pupil loss as a result of the vat change. Least disruptive for staff and pupils.