To not sign friends petition about school fees ?

[Whereforartthoudave]

Or more to the point tell her why I’m not?

friend grp - 3 families out of 9 send their kids to private school. One dad has decided to start a petition re Private schools losing their charity status - as in it’s not fair if they do. His DW has sent it round this morning.

Stupidly rather than just ignore it - when she said will you sign, I said, sorry no - Private schools are businesses not charities so I agree with the proposed change.

Now she wants to know WHY exactly.

YANBU - ignore it and don’t get into a bun fight over private versus state school. I’m not judging their choices but I don’t think the schools should have tax breaks.

YABU - tell her why. The why being I don’t agree with private schools at all, but her money her choice. And think it’s laughable that they have charity status when the majority ( and this is backed up by actual stats) do virtually nothing to earn it.

Not me - this was said in paper review last night on SKY News and not corrected.

However private schools losing charitable status might not have the intended effect. It will potentially make it unaffordable for the less wealthy families and necessitate the creation of more state school places, which there is no funding for.

We're far too poor to ever afford private school ourselves, and even if we were wealthy, we wouldn't consider it; but this is very true.

The fact is that the wealthy people* who can afford to pay for private school are already paying significantly more in taxes than the average person (assuming no 'clever' accounting), much of which goes towards something that they are entitled to use but actively choose not to. I don't get the hatred that demands they should pay even more on top of that.

I feel the same about people who use BUPA - I don't know if their fees attract VAT, but imho, they certainly shouldn't.

*I know a lot of people will protest that they aren't rich but just budget carefully and make sacrifices, but you're hardly poor if you have that option open to you in the first place, are you?

Buying educational privilege is unethical.

If something is unethical to buy, why does it make it less unethical for the government to still allow people to buy it but then profit from it themselves?

Anything that is 'discouraged' by charging a hefty tax on it, rather than just banning or restricting it, is sending a clear message to the very rich that they can just go ahead and do whatever they like, as they usually do, without giving it a moment's thought.

Well I wouldn't have sent the petition around, it makes no difference to anything. However when loads of kids parents can't send them to private school and there are more in state school with already overworked teachers, you'll find you wish it kept its charitable status. Its the most stupid, poorly thought through policy, which shows the short sightedness of people who are jealous.

I had it the other way around. My children go to private school. A friend sent a fundraising message asking me to donate money for their child’s state school.

Tell them that you're already effectively doing that, by 'supporting' the school with your taxes but not using any of its resources.

I agree that a petition signed by the minority of the population that stand to directly benefit from it is not really worth anybody's time.

You may just as well have 100% of the residents on Acacia Avenue signing a petition to reduce the income tax rate to 0% for everybody who lives on Acacia Avenue!

They should be vat exempt up to the average state per pupil funding as that is what the government has decided it costs to provide an education. Eg The first £6k a year or whatever it is should be zero rated. Then there is an incentive to increase state school funding.

Should all forms of education have VAT applied? Music? Sports? Tutoring?

I'm surprised that people seem to think that if their kids go to state school then they would unaffected by these proposed changes. It's the state kids that stand to lose the most. The big, fancy private schools are not the ones that would be impacted by changes like this, it's the smaller private schools that are part of most communities. If these schools become unaffordable then where will the kids go? Back into state education, putting even more pressure on school places and increasing class sizes. Many smaller private schools also have facilities that are used by the surrounding state schools - pools, stages, sports facilities etc. - if they lose their charitable status then why would they continue to offer this to the local state school?

They've been talking about this since I was at school 20 years ago ("give generously to the bake sale for Ethiopian orphans, girls, or we will lose our charity status and your parents will have to pay an extra 17.5% in VAT on your fees".

I'm not exaggerating when I say that's what we were told by teachers.

Anyway, people have been on about this proposal for decades. I'll believe it when I see it.

You’ve declined. No further explanation necessary (ours were at times privately educated. I wouldn’t have asked for your support on the issue if I had no idea whether you were the least interested.)

Who are they planning to send the petition to?

What was she thinking of sending it to you to sign. That's ridiculous, considering you send your children to state schools.

I would ignore it. If she asks you why - I would just say - my kids are in state schools, it doesn't impact me - so not getting involved.

Do you think they'd sign a petition for State schools if it was the other way around.

Experience has taught me - no one cares unless they're directly impacted. This goes for most things in life.

If the private schools lose their charitable status it will have a massive negative impact on state schools as the very many parents who are then priced out move over, meaning a huge increase in class sizes and resources stretched beyond tolerance.

With the reduction in private pupils there won’t even be a fraction of the money available from the change to fund the additional state needs.

the people most impacted by this are state parents.

As others have said, you've given your reasons, you don't need to say any more!

One thing that I do find slightly odd, is the frequent comment about state school parents using tutors to boost their kids up, being comparable to public school. My DS has a tutor as he finds academic work difficult. The tutor comes weekly and we pay £25 per hour.
We live in a relatively affluent area, but school my son is on a class of over 30 children, some of whom have complex SEN and all of whom are of varying abilities. They have one teacher and a couple of part time TAs. I don't think that setting plus a tutor for an hour a week in any way offers the same level of support as a child gets in a private school environment!

I think it is you that's being naive. Loosing charitable status and adding VAT will change the way private schools work. They will become true businesses with all the intended and unintended consequences that will bring. It will also need to be applied to all forms of tutoring to be fair. Probably best, to stay out of it altogether with your friend if you want to keep them rather than entering a debate with no right answer, just differing opinions.

Meh. You could bring the closing private schools into the state sector. Recruit the teachers too.

You could taper it in so it only applies to new pupils in private schools. It is beyond ludicrous that schools that work against equality have charitable status.

Apols for typos, can't edit on phone...hopefully you get the idea of what I was trying to say!

You've already told her though, haven't you?

"Private schools are businesses not charities so I agree with the proposed change."

I don't think you need to say any more than that.

@fearfuloffluff if a school that has lost it's charitable status and has therefore become a business closes, why would it go back into the state sector as a school? If the land is cheap and the council can afford to buy then that's a possibility. If it's a school with prime real estate then it will go to the highest bidder and will be sold for profit.

“Because they do very little charitable activity and are all about making money. Considering 7% of children go to private school then the tax would be a huge boost for the economy”

‘Well done Starmer for creating more division. ‘

At some point are the Tory supporters not going to open their eyes and realise that they can no longer blame ‘the previous government ‘ or the opposition for the inequalities happening under the watch of the actual government?

we have billionaire and millionaire old Etonians in charge of the country - who don’t use the NHS, don’t use public services, don’t use State school, do use every grey area tax avoidance scheme they can - but somehow ‘division’ and inequality is created by the other side?

I’ll never forget when the private school next to my uni was closing down. The parents stood outside in their gilets shaking buckets asking ordinary punters to save the school that no ordinary punter could afford to attend in a million years. Their lack of insight astounded me at the time but it doesn’t seem that much has changed. Private schools are not a choice for the majority of us as no amount of scrimping would result in us having enough money for it. Our local private school just drains our town of well brought up academic kids (if the entrance exam is to be believed) which messes up the socioeconomic dynamic of the state high school. Despite that, our eldest DD is thriving and her siblings can’t wait to join her at the local state school.

I don't mean all schools, but surely there would be some. They're not all in stately homes etc

Perhaps all those parents no longer paying thousands in fees could donate some money that they save to the state schools.

As many state school parents already do, regularly. (You wouldn't know this. )

But I guess they wouldn't want to do that, as it would benefit everyone's children and not just their own.

I send my children to private schools - and I think she’s being a prat.

(If anyone really pressed me on the matter - I think there probably ought to be a separate tax designation for private education establishments + they should have to earn the right to any sort of tax break by demonstrating genuine social contribution)

its EXTREMELY crass to send a petition to people who have, whether for financial or social reasons, made different educational choices - and expect them to justify why they won’t enthusiastically support a tax break for your choice…

lots of good response ideas from PPs here.

but she sounds like a terrible advert for private education…