Russel has spoken

[Whyismyfacealwaysdry]

On Instagram, has anyone seen? What are your thoughts?

Oh, so you don’t believe the women.

Just say that, then.

You think 4 women went on national tv & in a national newspaper describing fake rapes and sexual assaults.

You believe that they were coerced / manipulated into lying because Russell Brand is a government target because he makes You Tube videos about information already in the public domain.

You believe that hundreds, possibly thousands, of people who had heard about Brand being a predator, created WhatsApp groups to warn each other, held meetings on the possibility of not employing women on his shows, recorded segments calling him out and had years of therapy to get over an imaginary rape, are all part of this government take down.

ok.

Because it’s words presented by actors in a show. None of us know whether those were the exact words used by the women. And regardless, they were certainly not as they said them since they were said by actors.

Evidence is legal terminology for the presentation of proof of something in a court of law, to be assessed by judge or jury as applicable. If this goes to court, it will not be as shown in the tv documentary.

Now you’re being disingenuous. I don’t not believe them either.

You’re putting words into my mouth.

Actually it is just a documentary and is a good basis for the police to investigate.

It is silly to imagine they had to present a case to a criminal standard. However, the role of the media is to highlight issues like this snd they did so responsibly.

It's now the job of the police to follow it up and see what complaints were made. I think there will be.

And THAT is the point. It is for the police to follow up. I don’t expect a documentary to be made to police standard.

I also don’t expect the general public to use that documentary which we both agree does not need to be up to standard, to make definitive judgment on the thing they can’t possibly know.

However, the fact people are, absolutely illustrates why the legal system is vital.

But THAT'S precisely the issue: he's not a 'conspiracy theorist' which is WHY he's being targeted. If he was just a 'conspiracy theorist' they wouldn't give him the time of day. Think about it...

And the Times article? No music or moody lighting in that. Just words, some in quotation marks (this means they are direct quotes). The documentary and article do have an agenda - to expose the truth about the rumours that RB is a predator. The words will have been chosen to back that. That’s why there weren’t lots of interviews with women saying how lovely he was to their nan - it isn’t relevant.

They included the 4 strongest stories - and by strongest I mean the ones that had enough corroborating evidence to pass the very high bar required for mainstream media and to avoid any defamation claims.

Police probe after Brand sexual offence claims https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66918331

The Metropolitan Police says it will investigate allegations of "non-recent" sexual offences following news reports about comedian Russell Brand.

And the article? Inverted commas mean direct quotes. No actors.

Thankfully that bar is not the same bar set for actual legal implications to convict in court.

And where they are quotes then yes, they’re quotes.

You cannot both believe the women and simultaneously doubt they have been assaulted by Brand.

Well the point is that all the people who drone re due process and trial by media are wrong.

This isn't s trial by media. It was a four year, carefully considered investigation. If it had been slanderous (civil standard of proof) then Brand could have stopped it.

He didn't.

Whether we've got a criminal case is always for the police to establish. And then the authorities to prosecute. They are looking at his conduct and these incidents now.

These women say he raped or sexually assaulted them. Some of these complaints have now gone to the police as a result of this programme.

This is s terrible story but it is supported by facts. And facts, not opinion, are what will do for Brand.

I think you need to re-read.

I wouldn’t say ‘thankfully’ given the justice system is so unfit for purpose that rape and sexual assault is effectively decriminalised in the UK. How odd.

We seem to have reached the same conclusion, though we disagree with the process to get there. The police will investigate and the courts will decide. That’s how it should be.

This lacks nuance. You can’t convict without evidence. Unfortunately, sexual assault is very hard to evidence. It’s a bit of a catch-22 in that respect. But the alternative - to convict without evidence, would essentially see the downfall of a civilised society.

@SatsumaNightmare / the media's role is to expose such matters. If they are wrong they can be sued.

Facts are expensive, opinions are cheap. This documentary dealt with facts. Brand is all opinion.

Facts are what make use rational and save us from conspiracy theories. I find it revealing Brand likes them so much.

Facts are facts but people considering facts are subjective, which means there will be different interpretations. Again, that’s why the legal system exists. So they can tease out the difference between subjective interpretation and objectivity. It’s also why witness testimony is notoriously unreliable - what people think may not be what is true. I’m aware that’s difficult.

So you think the entire purpose of the media is to unearth fact? Really?

I don’t understand.

’i don’t not believe them’.

so you do believe them?

so you do believe Russell Brand assaulted these women?

I have no idea. I’m not making a judgment on media presentation.

You are accusing the women of mirroring Brand's stand up routines in their statements. That is fair enough, but you don't seem to be able to offer any examples of this. That is what I am saying.

No I’m not. I’m saying that’s one possible interpretation.

I admit, I find it a little weird how black and white people are expecting this to be.

@SatsumaNightmare / in my view journalism is exactly for that.

However, we do have s society that is increasingly divided because we have a media full of opinion.

Contrary to conspiracy theorists who don't deal with facts, who suggest thoughts or give opinions inviting you to make your own conclusions, fact based media is a very good thing.

There used to be a lot more of it.

Social media is opinion. That is why it has messed us up so much. But this is another thread.