To think there is a sub-class of people in our society

[bluewanda]

Baby boy died in 'filthy' home with 'traces of cocaine in his system'

https://mol.im/a/12545263

What the hell is wrong with these people. How the fuck can they subject an innocent baby to such a horrific life?! These children should be removed at birth because they don’t stand a chance. It is so utterly depressing.

No, they're human, just like you.

They've probably had a spectacularly shitty childhood themselves, may have been born addicted to alcohol or drugs, had their psychological development completely buggered up by abusive parenting.

Does any of that excuse that behaviour, no. But it does go some way to explaining it.

And it may make you feel better to "other" these people, but it doesn't help. If you'd lived their life, you may have acted exactly the same.

I was a Special Constable for 5 years. I can't even begin to get across to "normal" people, how awful a certain section of society is. Nothing prepared me for it. In those 5 years, I only went in to 2 houses that I would say were "normal". The rest were filthy hovels. Despite the occupants not working, they never ever cleaned. So most surfaces were black with grime. Faeces smeared on the walls. People sleeping on filthy mattresses. The children were not clothed properly and often hungry. Drug addiction was rife. The houses STANK. The first time I went in to a home like this, I was so shocked and thought it was a one off. But no. Every home after that was the same. The people didn't wash, despite having running water. They wouldn't change their clothes for weeks. That's assuming they actually got dressed in the morning.

I tried to tell my Mum how bad it was, and she would reply "Oh dear, sounds bad", but honestly, unless you have seen it with your own eyes, you can't comprehend the depravity.

I think it's a mix of not being raised properly, parents having zero expectations of their children, no one in the family ever working, no money, drug use, alcohol addiction, everyone in your circle being the same (so it's normalised), committing crime because you have no money, getting depressed because you have nothing, turning to drugs and alcohol to try and forget.

If you're born in to a normal family with loving parents, access to resources and enough money to get a decent start in life, you really are lucky. None of us knows how our lives would be, had we been born in to abject poverty or to drug addicted parents. Would we be the Richard Branson, who broke the mould? Maybe, but probably not. Having a normal start in life is an absolute godsend.

Obviously the above had nothing to do with this case. I don't even know where to begin with that!

Quite often it’s the only thing of value they feel they CAN do. I’m not excusing them. But it’s easy to say “shouldn’t be allowed to procreate”, not so easy to rebuild society from the bottom up. This goes all the way back to Thatcher and her mantra “there is no such thing as society”. Which basically means “take care of yourself because nobody else matters”.

People are not born shit people

Wrong. People are born with really low IQ, psychopathy, just plain BAD.

Sure nurture plays its part, but nature is at the front of our genetic makeup.

You can be made into a shit person, but of course you can be born a shit person in the first place.

Are you putting people with a low IQ in the same bracket as psychopaths?

No, I'm not an AI. I've been on here about 15 years, definitely had this name over ten years if you want to Advanced Search me, I don't mind.

I fully admit to being a bleeding heart softy. But I'm also interested in the logic behind different beliefs and the idea that people can be separated into categories of "good" and "bad" is particularly fascinating because people seem so very sure that it is possible, but when you press for details nobody can draw a sharp line in between the two and that's the bit I am curious about.

Honestly this is probably not the thread for it. I'll leave it and start a general thread another time that isn't linked to any specific case.

@BMW6 having a low IQ or intellectual disability does not make you bad.
It means life will be a constant struggle.

Often because of people's shitty views, such as the one you've just displayed.

Investment in social workers so they have fewer families on their caseload, better training, support and pay for said SWs to produce and retain skilled practitioners
Likewise HCPs like health visitors, midwives.

decent reasonably priced child care to enable parents to work and contribute, to break the cycle of poverty. Opportunities to gain qualifications post school.
Proper intensive support for these troubled ‘families’.

parental education opportunities like Surestart with access to health visitors, psychologists, mentors to keep a track of these types of parents, a legal system that ensures timely intervention

more investment in schools, SEN support as most of these ‘parents’ themselves have learning difficulties and fall through the net, never had decent role models etc

All this requires money. It’s easier to other these people rather than to see their existence as a societal failing which needs huge long term intervention.

The notion of a sub class in Britain has been around at least since the victorian period. Look at the Charles Booth maps of London in the 1890s, he described the lowest class as viscous, semi criminal, shown in black on his maps
https://booth.lse.ac.uk/map/17/-0.1324/51.5167/100/0

Thank you for this, i couldn't put my similar thoughts into words properly. It is silly to ignore these peoples backgrounds, to ignore is to continue the cycle of abuse. It might feel a bit wrong to treat them with humanity but that's exactly what's needed to avoid this in future.

In reference to my first reply, Of course the parents are to blame. They shouldn't have ever had another child. Reading the article though, it's clear there was no joint working going on with the various professionals that could have protected this baby.

MyHornCanPierceTheSky · Yesterday 23:05

Most of us on this thread will have been lucky in that we had stable homes, parents who were invested in us, and who were in turn lucky enough not to have serious mental health issues or addictions”

I didn’t. I lived with violence and chaos until I became a young adult and left. I made a good life for myself because I knew the way I was brought up was wrong. Our children were raised with love.

Everyone has a choice.

You've done well but it's not a given that everyone else will. Upbringing is a huge thing for people and many don't come out the better side of a bad one through no fault of their own.

The key things are moving away, being able to access education, and having insight into your circumstances.

Many people cannot do it. The mental strength needed is massive. If you have a low IQ, are excluded from school, never go, or live in an area where this culture is normalized (violence, early pregnancy, casual use of drugs, family splits or casual step parenting, early sexual experience, no transport, a home filthy so no one sees except dealers or abusers) the odds are stacked against you.

I have met people who survived violent homes though all were scarred. I have met people who survived sexual abuse and poverty and moved on. But they all left where they came from. They cut off their parents. And they did not live in the circumstances like this case describes (which is not so unusual).

@PickledFox ”Sub” = under. There are some people unfortunately who operate outside accepted societal norms. They don’t expect to take responsibility for themselves, their children or animals. They may feel no obligation to consider how they impact others. They may feel no obligation to act within the law. They certainly do not feel an obligation to bring up their children as decent, contributing members of society and so the problem grows.
I do not believe we do enough to stop the cycle of dependency and antisocial behaviour that engulfs some families. Let me be clear these are not those who find themselves struggling or those on benefits, they are a growing underclass and a cancer in society.

Our society is broken. We don’t tackle problems and it snowballs into this.

@Pollyputhekettleon Interesting that you think genetics could well come into play-

Even with animals ( Horses, Dogs) it’s known that good temperament passes on to the offspring- or otherwise.

The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
Many years ago there was a “ Problem family “ where I was growing up
Googling I’m 2023 shows same family in local press but moved down a couple of generations.

Nature or nurture?

@Pollyputhekettleon

Epi-genetics is a fascinating topic!

Exactly. Othering people, calling them subhuman or a subclass is just a way to ignore the problems in society that cause people to act this way. It's a way to say "These people are different, it's ingrained in them" and that if they'd been brought up differently, they'd still be scum.

It's just not true. It's a generational issue, and one that won't be solved quickly, but is something we all need to work at, by reporting abuse when we spot it, by voting for a government that will spend money on the right services, by parenting our own kids in ways that will let them grow up to be well adjusted adults. These people are human, they are a part of our society, and when a tragedy like this happens, it's because we as a society have failed this child.

I heard an interview with Gabor Mate re intergenerational trauma and so much of it rang true. It was a lightbulb moment for me. It's a terrible thing to dismiss people without considering the 'why'.

The country is a mess.
Brexit, Covid, austerity, tory government fucking everything up... things are going to pot all over the place.
It's pretty obvious that this is going to put considerable additional strain on the most vulnerable in society, who probably don't cope well with life even in "good" times. I think we're seeing evidence of this all over the news with the awful things people are doing.

But to be honest I don't disagree with the OP - these people are the fucking lowest if the low, and I don't really give a shit about the "circumstances" that led them to kill their innocent child. It's an utter disgrace and my heart breaks for every story like this I hear. IMO some people are beyond help and honestly the world would be better place without them in it.

All very well and good, but if you don't investigate why they are like that, how will you stop it happening again?

There’s no accountability, and until poor parents are made to take accountability, the cycle will never be broken. People constantly look to blame others for their shortcomings, rather than accepting them and looking to change. How often do we read on here about kids being excluded from school for bad behaviour, but it’s the schools fault! I work with these families and the lack of accountability goes from the smallest things such as arriving late for a meeting to the big things as child abuse. Yes, generational trauma and the cyclical nature of this plays a part, but until these parents take accountability and recognise that maybe they don’t have the skills and ability to parent, this will continue.

We need to know the causes and what measures society can take to minimize horrible cases like that. But unfortunately if upping benefits for poor families were found to cut down on such neglect, I believe a lot of people here would be up in arms

You know exactly where an increase in benefits would have been spent in this particular case. There's no reason to suspect extra money would reduce neglect in any other cases either, neglect isn't simply a lack of material resources.