AIBU to think that the Tories are utterly wicked to drop net zero?

[Upsizer]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/19/rishi-sunak-planning-drop-net-zero-policies-pre-election-challenge-labour

I think this is genuinely wicked but I guess it was inevitable with the easiness of drumming up a culture war over environmental issues to win votes. Environment is the new Brexit.

Fighting climate change is going to cost all of us thousands of pounds. So we won’t do it - to get votes.

Our children will live on an island suffering extremes of heat and fighting off refugees from uninhabitable parts of the world.

But it will save us some cash I guess.

AIBU to think this is wicked?

You are coming off as a bit aggressive @Goldenbear

I don’t disagree with you on your points but I’m not personally responsible for all the people who voted to leave the EU. I cannot go back in time and make people change their minds. I am also rather well educated and do take an interest in politics and economy, I don’t really need to be lectured on being politically apathetic.

I wonder if you have seen how people are living day to day in poverty? I have, through both work and voluntary positions.

you seem quite tetchy since I’ve mentioned Green privilege.

So AGAIN, while I am disappointed in Rishi Sunak, I will not apologise for being pleased for some people for whom a burden has been relieved, albeit only for a little while.

This thread is so SAD. Our children’s lives will be so much harder than ours and people don’t seem to care.

I don’t think it correct that people don’t care. Not all, but many do.

but we live in a time where people need to prioritise and for many, it’s not easy to prioritise something that will happen in years to come over something that will happen tomorrow.

it’s like the age old cloth nappy argument. Much like Vimes Boots.

”Sarah would love to use cloth nappies but can’t afford £200 to buy them at once as opposed £4 for a pack of disposable ones every week”

I don’t think it is misunderstanding the issues. Yes, we need infrastructure and to invest differently. That isn’t enough to save us though, is it? How many of us have sold our cars and bought push bikes? How many of us have gone vegan? How many of us have vegetable patches in our gardens? How many of us have moved into smaller homes? Or had less children? Or decided not to travel abroad again?

It’s all very well sitting there complaining about how terrible our children are going to have it, but what are you doing about it, other than expressing your opinion?

I wouldn't say losing our global place in the development to a green economy, ruining the investment and planning of thousands of firms, and the impact of that on the British economy and the corresponding worsening of poverty is 'hilarious'🙄

Ok so you do care but you’ve said you didn’t have to pay before so think you might not have to next time

If you do have to pay to upgrade your house are you ready to go?

Although to be fair, there are many smaller changes people could make but don’t because of convenience

although I understand how people may feel discouraged from doing them when the government flip flops around on their Green policies

“why do I bother” springs to mind

WSMI "UK emits less than 1% of global emissions.

How is it wicked to drop a target that makes no difference at all to the climate."

SO TRUE. China and India need to get on board for change to happen.

For the very reason that being at the forefront of these changes in green technology not only helps the environment but gives the UK economy a competitive advantage, we are not even in the race now!

The Royal Society (scientific body much respected) have worked out that we need to start planning now for huge capacity electricity storage to meet net zero. Are we?

In regard to global climate change, whilst the UK is a relatively small emitter of green house gasses, we ve now told the world that CC no longer matters, that we can all do as we like & that our promises mean very little.

We will also lose a lot of crucial investment in green tech. who will invest if the market just isn't there? why will anyone change an oil boiler? if these targets can be changed on whim, they can all be changed again.

I'd rather he'd get a move on with car charging infrastructure and allow hybrid cars in 2030 instead.

& why nothing on home insulation grants?

what i particularly didn't like about Sunak is he lied and lied again.. meat taxes, flight taxes, forcing people to car share... he said he'd scrapped all these but they never existed in the first place!!

I wonder how being so dishonest fits in with his Hindu faith.

What percentage of the global population are we though? We emit many times more than our fair share.

And if developed nations don't bother, there's zero chance that other nations will bother.

It's monumentally depressing that they've done it, that half the people on here support them.

It's also another trap for Labour - Tories won't have a chance to do anything really, they're setting Labour up to look like green measures are on them if they reintroduce them. Tories promise stuff now, Labour has to either break that promise or scrap some of their own plans to pay for it

Words fail me for how utterly devoid of principle the Tories are

Individuals can't tackle climate change, sustainability targets can only be met by collective action that the government needs to lead the way in. That is why we vote for a PM, that is why we vote- for the government to govern us. They can put in place policies, regulations and enshrine targets in law. I don't follow your point about discussion/dialogue not being important, of course it is otherwise we wouldn't no what action to take or why we are taking it (not taking it).

I wasn't suggesting you personally were those things but I am not sure how this seen as anything other than an untrustworthy move, cynically taken to gain votes from the short-termists!

Individuals can't tackle climate change

At some point though the individual has to pay. That’s the hard part for each of us

It’s going to take forking out money not just words

Because the average Joe can’t afford it (estimate is that it would cost every household £15K) and doesn’t have the room for things like heat pumps and electric car charging areas

So you'd prefer to ride the tailcoats of other nations and miss any chance at capitalising on an unprecedented economic opportunity than be brave and act as a leader? How very little britain.

I keep seeing this £15k figure being bandied about but not sure where it's come from?

If it's been derived from the Office for Budget Responsibility's work that pursuing net zero will cost c6% of GDP then, by the same report, it will cost each household c£32.5k to not pursue it. Can the average joe afford that?

Either way it doesn't need to cost the average Joe anything at all. The government could choose to invest in projects, schemes and initiatives that help achieve net zero goals.

For example, if the government had invested in energy security infrastructure and building efficiency instead of propping up private industry, ignoring covid fraud, or building a pointless trainline, they could have avoided having to spend £40bn of taxpayers money on ensuring people could pay their energy bills last year.

Heat pump prices vary considerably but for an air source heat pump you are probably looking at something in the range of £12-£15,000 inclusive of system design and installation. That is before the £7,500 in government funding under the Boiler Upgrade Scheme (BUS) is taken into account. So, the actual amount typically paid is between £7-£10,000.

Individuals can't tackle climate change You’re kind of making my point for me. Governments can’t tackle it by themselves either. Do you really believe that they’ll be able to set a few targets and magically, global warming will stop? Of course it won’t. Not while we’re all still flying abroad and driving cars and eating out of season vegetables with our beef and shopping on Amazon because it’s convenient. The governments of the world can only do so much and if we aren’t willing to change our lives too, then we’re only kicking the problem down the road a couple of years, at best.

I don't follow your point about discussion/dialogue not being important, of course it is otherwise we wouldn't no what action to take or why we are taking it (not taking it) I haven’t made a point about discussion and dialogue not being important. I’ve made the point that we all have to do a bit more than talk about what needs to be done and, you know, actually start doing that stuff which is going to make our lives inconvenient and uncomfortable. And not enough of us are doing that. Instead, we’re telling ourselves that talking about things is enough. It’s not. It’s certainly not a substitute for changing our lives. And that is why I think the world is fucked. Feeling morally superior because you think Rishi is an idiot might be lovely, but it’s not actually fixing anything, is it?

No, at equivalent cost.

Electricity is 3x more expensive than gas per kw of heat generated - but the heat pump is 3-4x more efficient. So the output costs are equivalent.

If you currently heat a draughty and poorly insulated house with gas, you can do it with an ASHP too.

The way the system produces the heat has no impact on the level of heat loss from the building. How could it?

As an aside, the higher cost of electricity vs gas is directly due to policy decisions of this government, such as loading all costs of social support etc onto elec bills and not into gas bills -which could be reversed tomorrow if Sunak was actually interested in helping people….

I’d like to know where you got those figures from. I suspect they may include the cost of a full new central heating installation, radiators and all.

Octopus energy’s standard heat pump installation costs an average £8,000 (total cost for parts, labour, etc ).

With the £5,000 grant , the cost to the user is £3,000. With the new grant announcement, the cost will be £500.

That’s a very long way off £7-10,000.

I wouldn't say losing our global place in the development to a green economy, ruining the investment and planning of thousands of firms, and the impact of that on the British economy and the corresponding worsening of poverty is 'hilarious'

This is somewhat of an exaggeration based on the particular changes and delays that Sunak has announced.

I spent an evening this week interviewing fund managers on their portfolios. Even the global funds (with fund managers from outside the U.K.) have significant investments in the U.K., whether directly through renewable energy generation (in existing projects) or complementary businesses in cleantech.

The U.K. remains amongst the leaders in decarbonisation innovation and technology, along with parts of Scandinavia. To suggest otherwise simply isn't the case.

What home grown tech? Siemens/Gamesa are leaders in wind tech and as you spend your evenings interviewing international fund managers on their investment decisions, you'll have a list of UK companies at hand.

Oxford Solar had to move production to Germany for their innovative new panel designs.

Here https://www.evergreenenergy.co.uk/heat-pump-guides/much-heat-pump-cost/