To think that “innocent until proven guilty” just doesn’t always apply, particularly in cases of sex offences?

[AngeloMysterioso]

It should… I know it should. In a fair and just world.

But the fact is that, in this country at least, because it’s almost always a he-said-she-said, the level of prosecutions and convictions for rape is so shockingly low that virtually every rapist out there is technically an innocent man.

I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t like trial by media, I don’t think someone should be convicted of a serious crime purely on somebody else’s say-so, but I also know that so many men are being able to get away with it that innocent until proven guilty has become a complete crock of shit.

Especially when the perpetrator is famous. Even setting aside the one in the news right now, we also have a recent case of a footballer whose crime was literally recorded and he still got away with it.

I mean what the fuck do we do?!

It is unfairly weighted, that is true, but what do you suggest happens? How can this be improved? A conviction still can't be made based on one person's word.

Why do you think it's vanishingly unlikely your sons would be accused? I suspect it's more likely now actually.

Juries aren't great but what's the alternative

A screening process. Select people at random as now but then they sit a critical thinking test to see if they are capable of weighing up evidence rationally and understand the legal thresholds for burden of proof and select jurors only from those who pass the test.

This whole "trial by media" argument proceeds as if Brand, and men like him, have been actually tried by an illegal court and sentenced. He hasn't. Media or the public cannot sentence him. He's still going about his life, moaning about having been found out.

Organisations are free to hire him or not - they will when this has died down - but at least they'll be less keen now to look away from his blatant sexual abuse.

I wish he could be tried & sentenced but, as PPs have pointed out, that hardly ever happens in rape cases even when there's hard proof! I've got no doubts about the Times & Despatches investigation. If it weren't rock solid, they wouldn't have risked the defamation suit.

Given the feebleness of judicial response to rape, I'd prefer this kind of investigation to continued, silent protection of perpetrators.

The idea of screening jurors to ensure capacity for rational thinking is interesting. Am I correct in thinking that america has the process where both the prosecution and defense have the opportunity to question potential jurors and strike them from jury service on each trial?

GarlicGrace
Trial by media of innocent people does definately exist. And it can be career ending or limiting. Just look at cases like Cliff Richard, Mathew Kelly, Paul Gambacinni, Dr Fox etc.

@CallumDansTransitVan I believe so but I think that is more based on them screening for perceived potential biases in prosepctive jury members, rather than an objective test of rationality administered by the court as I'm suggesting, not by either the prosecution or defence with a view to what would be favourable or unfavourable to them.

It wouldn't solve many of the issues in this thread of course, but I've long held this view that this reform would be a huge improvement to the jury system for trials of all crimes and enable higher levels of confidence in the legal system, increase the likelihood of conviction of those who are guilty and reduce the (already low) rate of wrongful convictions.

Go on then. I'd love to see a link where a completely innocent man has his life ruined (that isn't one of the two you mentioned)

I've said numerous times if you RTFT

Are you sure YOU have RTFT 🙄 a completely innocent man committed suicide over it, I would consider that his life was ruined. The girls admitted they lied as he told them off.

You clearly only like being agreed with, no point in debating if you can't listen to others views surely.

I need to see some evidence before I make up my mind, as opposed to "trial by internet". You haven't even provided a link.
Innocent until proven guilty also applies to females.

The real answer is an education (and society) that imbues us all with the knowledge that life isn't perfect and there will have to be times when "shit happens".

Under the present system - some guilty go free, some innocent get jailed. Changing the ratios doesn't really improve the system. Just moves the failures around.

I think, as I grow older I appreciate how much fucking time has been wasted over several lifetimes rejecting the better because it isn't the perfect. In almost all areas of life. It's infantile and a boon to those with a heavily invested interest in the status quo. (Not to be confused with those who have a heavily invested interest in Status Quo, which is mainly a denim thing).

It's ludicrous to demand links by way of evidence of innocent men who have had their lives ruined by being wrongly convicted. We know wrongful convictions happen, and it's pretty bloody obvious it will ruin lives if that means they go to prison, with all the consequences that flow from that.

And?! Do you think women don’t kill themselves after being raped, or worse still, raped and then tarred a liar?

Im sick to death of living in a society where rape is basically legal and rape victims are put through traumatic court cases only to be brandished a liar when he gets off. I don’t want to live in that world but that’s where we are, yet I’m meant to prioritise the minuscule number of men falsely accused, presumably because their lives are more important than any woman’s. Fucking sick of it.

And?! Do you think women don’t kill themselves after being raped, or worst still, raped and then tarred a liar?

This is a terrible take. Either suicide is bad or it's not. I'm sure you could make your point without expressing not like this.

Then why is the conversation always about men who kill themselves after being falsely accused, and not about the rape victims who do? Why does no one care about innocent women be called a liar and how HER life can be ruined?

The poster offered to post a link - they shouldn’t offer one if they don’t actually have one. And yes, I think a lot of us would like more evidence because false convictions are rare. What’s more likely is someone being acquitted on a technicality than them not actually being a rapist so actually seeing these open/close definitely false accusations would be nice as so many posters are more concerned about that than actual rapists ruining women’s life and continuing to walk around on our streets.

How do you know its miniscule though? The one I am talking about only ever got reported locally, there are bound to be others that no one knows about.

I just don't understand your thinking? It doesn't matter whether it's a man or a woman being accused of a crime, surely no one is happy to sacrifice an innocent life for a few more convictions. Who is prioritising men? I can't see anyone on this thread. I just believe only guilty people should be convicted and nothing will convince me otherwise. Rape victims not being listened to and cases not taken forward is not the fault of anyone else other than the organisations taking (or not) forward these cases.

They do care, you are just not listening.

I have a link, but it's outing to my area and the school I attended. I said I could post it, not that I would.

Oh sure, yeah, I’m just not hearing all the people who are concerned about rape victims killing themselves after being labelled a liar. Sure, I could say the same to you about men who are falsely accused, who get talked about and worried about far more. 🙄

I would be, at this point (sacrifice a few years of a very small number of men's lives inside prisons, if the trade off was a significant decline in sex offences).

Won't someone think of the men?

Both a rape victim and a man who is falsely accused are innocent people. Why put them against each other about who matters more?

Rape not going to trial is an issue. Men being falsely accused is a less prevalent issue, but still not something to be taken lightly.

Worse thing about rape is all the Poor Menz being falsely accused and having their lives ruined, you know, like how CONVICTED rapist Mike Tyson had his life ruined 🥺

Well maybe men can stop raping then, then they won’t need to worry about false accusations because rape won’t exist.

Or stop putting themselves in a position where they can be accused of rape. Bit tipsy, alone at night with a woman they don't know...