To think that “innocent until proven guilty” just doesn’t always apply, particularly in cases of sex offences?

[AngeloMysterioso]

It should… I know it should. In a fair and just world.

But the fact is that, in this country at least, because it’s almost always a he-said-she-said, the level of prosecutions and convictions for rape is so shockingly low that virtually every rapist out there is technically an innocent man.

I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t like trial by media, I don’t think someone should be convicted of a serious crime purely on somebody else’s say-so, but I also know that so many men are being able to get away with it that innocent until proven guilty has become a complete crock of shit.

Especially when the perpetrator is famous. Even setting aside the one in the news right now, we also have a recent case of a footballer whose crime was literally recorded and he still got away with it.

I mean what the fuck do we do?!

And if the unbiased person looks out the window and the car is indeed blue, then that person is vindicated. The problem is as always, there isn't often that independent person to ask.

I always told mine (sons and daughters) that but it isn't foolproof.

@AdamRyan

I have two sons. I think its vanishingly unlikely any false accusation would make it to court and lead to conviction.

**
Do you also believe in the Easter Bunny?

A woman admitted to make it all up
2 of the 3 men she accused did time.

When i was younger i wouldn't have believed it either.

Maybe they could join a monastery

Sadly, it is not always easy to distinguish. Short of having a form printed out for a signature, or recording the act itself, what constitutes solid proof of consent? So much can be digitally manipulated now, the ice is very very thin.

I find your op quite shocking tbh it’s not right

Loving that answer @JaneJeffer . So all men are in monasteries, and women visit when they want to pick a stud?! Please tell me how that differs from visiting a brothel?

I wonder that too. I was wondering about an app that partners register consent on before having sex, but then what happens if they change their mind? It seems impossible to me to prove consent was given and maintained.

Why is telling men to live in a monastery so much worse than telling women that they shouldn’t walk there, at that time, looking like that, in that place? Why is it perfectly ok to restrict women’s freedom, but never men’s? Why can we not have even just one curfew for men a year to celebrate international women’s day, but women face curfew and judgement every day? What it boils down to, every time, is that men’s feelings are more important than women’s lives.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph

One woman. Once. Those men weren't convicted.
Plus Andrew Malkinson who was convicted.

One in four women report being raped as an adult. That's about 9 million women.

So out of 9 million women who say theyve been raped, so far on this thread we have evidence of two being false accusations that ruined lives.

so yeah, vanishingly unlikely. About the same as winning the lottery jackpot. Not something worth planning for (or basing law around)

It's not something you need to worry about, as long as you are careful about who you have sex with and don't pick the wrong partner.

Another piece of advice that women are given all the time but that doesn't seem to trouble men.

@RosaGallica I don't like my freedom restricted, but I do have to give my sons the same warnings about not walking in certain places, not alone, not late. Clothes are not an issue so much as men's clothing is not usually revealing, though I would advise them not to wear very tight shorts. Not that people shouldn't wear what they want, and not that the fear for my daughter isn't more, but just pointing out that all citizens have to be wary, because the world isn't safe. Never has been.

Because most people don't live in single sex environments, @RosaGallica . Look at the education threads; most people prefer their children educated in co-educational establishments, unless you are an orthodox Jew or Islamist. I was very offended when an orthodox Jew refused to shake hands with me on being introduced. Forty years later, I still think it's a viewpoint that's 2000 years out of date.

Quite correct. Everyone makes judgement calls on where is safe to be. Statistically young men and male teenagers are considerably more likely to suffer an assault.

Agree @LuwakCoffee and @user9630721458 that consent is very difficult to determine. However, if the man is proven to knowingly have had non-consensual sex, that clears it up nicely.

Like how Russell brand sent a text message admitting he did something without consent. Phone calls and covert recordings do the same.

@AdamRyan

One woman. Once. Those men weren't convicted.
Plus Andrew Malkinson who was convicted.

**
No not ONE woman.
This is not a unique story........
But I can see you've made up your mind.

So until it's your friend / brother/ etc you will not be able to see the other side of the coin.

I joked to my boys about doing this last night. Get written consent before having sex. It really takes the romance out of it though.

But in all honesty there is a point where consent has to be implied. Could you imagine a man saying "can I penetrate you?"

If a woman starts taking her own clothes off that's a good sign she wants it. If she places a hand on his cock I'd say that's also a positive sign. The minute she says stop that's a clear sign she's not.

I'd love to know the number of men false accusations happen to. In my 50 years, I've known of 2 men that were falsely accused, one of them very remotely. The truth is that no man will ever admit to being a rapist.

I think if a woman reports injuries as a result of sexual intercourse then the assumption should be she's telling the truth. I don't think the argument of rough sex really holds weight.

@Goateen. Agreed texts and recorded phone calls are very helpful, if they exist. But often they don't. Sadly. It is really a very difficult crime to prosecute and I don't know what the solution would be.

Oh come off it user9630… Men have much greater freedom to travel around the globe and throughout towns and cities than girls and women. I am far from convinced that those ‘statistics’ saying males are more likely to be victims are correct if you add in not only unreported rapes but all unreported sexual harassment and assault. Certainly the way girls’ and women’s’ freedoms are restricted in comparison says we all know which sex is more at risk in practice. There have been studies showing that men would rape and assault if they knew they could get away with it. Also if it’s fully acceptable that places in Britain are not safe, then perhaps carrying weapons should be more acceptable, and let’s just give up on the idea of a civil society governed by law altogether. It’s all more excuses to justify the status quo of de facto restrictions for women because males cannot be trusted.

I agree with every word of this.

On a personal level I have more male friends who have been raped by a stranger, wrong place, wrong time kind of scenario. Sexual harassment and assault e.g. groping, cat calling is pretty much universal to every woman I've spoken to, but I don't think it's the case with men I know. Also, sexually abusive behaviour in relationships seems to be frequent amongst female friends, but not male. Only personal experience of course. I know 3 men who were beaten up walking home at night, no sexual element to it, just violence. When I consider my experience I feel advising my sons to be cautious is wise, as I also advise my daughter. I'm afraid I do think the whole world is dangerous. A small village is safer than a city, but in one very 'safe' small town near me, a homeless man was randomly killed with a brick not long ago. I don't agree with guns or weapons, I think it would make things worse.

There are very few examples where it's been proven a man has been falsely accused of rape. Those 2 are the only 2 I know
There are lots of examples of men being found not guilty - but as explained that does not mean they didn't rape someone or were falsely accused
And there are even more purely anecdotal cases of people knowing a man who claims he was falsely accused.

There is overwhelming evidence and data that rape victims don't get justice.

My sons are more likely to be raped, than be falsely accused of rape.

Even if they are falsely accused (vanishingly unlikely) I'm not going to change my mind that the current situation is unfairly weighted in favour of rapists over victims.

I could share the link in the papers of the person I know it happened to. I don't think it's that's rare actually, unfortunately what is rare are convictions of guilty men in rape/assault cases. This is the issue, you still can't take a chance of convicting innocent people to catch more rapists, the only way you'll catch more people is by more people coming forward, but on order to do that they need to feel safe/listened to.

When I was raped I was treated brilliantly by police, I didn't want to take things further as the man was from a well known family and I knew they would target me/my family. However it still would have been my word against his and that is what makes it so hard to prove. I have no idea what the actual answer is but sacrificing innocent peoples lives to get more convictions is not it. Unfortunately there needs to be evidence. If it was a member of your family would you be happy with a conviction based on say a girlfriend your brother dumped then saying he raped her?