To think that “innocent until proven guilty” just doesn’t always apply, particularly in cases of sex offences?

[AngeloMysterioso]

It should… I know it should. In a fair and just world.

But the fact is that, in this country at least, because it’s almost always a he-said-she-said, the level of prosecutions and convictions for rape is so shockingly low that virtually every rapist out there is technically an innocent man.

I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t like trial by media, I don’t think someone should be convicted of a serious crime purely on somebody else’s say-so, but I also know that so many men are being able to get away with it that innocent until proven guilty has become a complete crock of shit.

Especially when the perpetrator is famous. Even setting aside the one in the news right now, we also have a recent case of a footballer whose crime was literally recorded and he still got away with it.

I mean what the fuck do we do?!

Well maybe men can stop raping then, then they won’t need to worry about false accusations because rape won’t exist.

Does your son or husband rape? Are they responsible for the actions of Russell brand? This is a terrible viewpoint.

Sorry, but I don't know why I think I'm against you, now. I just think it's wrong to trivialise the suicide of innocent people - in this case, what I say about men who have not raped anyone.

There is a significant statistical likelihood that any given son or husband is, or will be, a rapist. If they're not, they're almost certainly doing nothing to address the wider problem.

My dad does, he sexually abused me as a child. I have no proof, so he gets away with it, simple as that, abuse a child, his own daughter, and get off scott free, and I’d be the bad person ruining his life if I ever told family. Is that fair? What sort of impact do you think that’s had on me?
Don’t accuse me of trivialising this, this is extremely serious to me.

I do accusr you of trivialising, and I don't care if that offends you.

As the victim of rape and sa, and as someone who's had a suicide in my family, there's no excuse for saying: 'and what?!' And whatever else.

You can make your point without being so flippant about innocent people. If it was a rapist who committed suicide, fair enough. An person killing themselves is a tragedy.

It’s not being flippant, it’s pointing out that there’s two sides to that coin, and everyone prioritises the male side, if both matter just as much, why is that the case? People kill themselves all the time, even actual rapists. We can’t let men off because they might kill themselves, when the other side of that coin is hurting more victims.

Im not being flippant, I’m angry at how much women are let down and that whenever this topic comes up, out come the handmaids and MRAs trying to divert everyone’s attention and focus to worrying over innocent men.

Anyway, you said you don’t care if you have offended me, and that’s fine, as presumably that means you also don’t expect me to care if my words offended you either.

To think that “innocent until proven guilty” just doesn’t always apply, particularly in cases of sex offences?

And we're actually living this batshit logic; the twonks who'd call RB a conspiracy theorist are the very ones paving the way for the ever creeping dictatorship where justice is based on an accusation alone.

RB has been all but booted off youtube (had his income removed). And it would appear 48% (YANBU) would be content to have their own, or their partners, income removed on nothing more than a rumour (because we can't even call these accusations; none of the women have actually reported him).

RB has been all but booted off youtube (had his income removed).

Boohoo, they do the same to women who know what biological sex is. It’s YouTube, they can do what they want on their private platform, he’ll just have to find a real job.

Exactly. Remember Kathleen Stock lost her job because she’s gender critical?

Exactly. Women are silenced all the time for perfectly legal views, yet when it happens to a male millionaire accused of rape, we’re meant to be concerned!

@Naunet @BIossomtoes

Quite - in the fair and just tribunal of public opinion, two wrongs make a right 🤪

He's a rapist FFS.

Firstly Russell Brand hasn't had a trial by media.. a group of women have shared their experiences with him, you can choose to believe or disbelieve them.
As for innocent until proven guilty that's obviously how it should be but as op pointed out when it comes to rape the criminal justice system isn't fit for purpose.
When it comes to this case we have..
5 women all with similar experiences
A man with a extensive history of misogynist behaviour and In his past at least zero respect for women.
Text messages from his phone apologising for his behaviour on the same date that the victim visited a rape clinic.
Work colleagues who highlighted that he shouldn't be around women on his own.
Records that his management arranged for cars to pick a girl up from school and drop her at his house.
A 16 year old girl's parents confirming he was having sex with there daughter.
Footage of him on stage describing how he liked blowups that choked girls and made them cry.

This is a lot more evidence than a lot of rape cases have but for some it's still not enough.. Im not convinced it's enough for a trial to take place.
Ask yourself this question.. What would you need to see to believe women, a video of the rape? It's that what we all need to start doing.. recording every sexual encounter we have?

Of course that's a ridiculous idea.. We all know that rapists walk free all the time. My own rapist put my DNA evidence and injuries down to consensual sex and liking it rough.

All the people who agree with innocent until proven guilty are calling 99% of rape victims liars while at the same time saying they should lose their right to speak out because trial by media isn't fair.

I don't know the answer to the issues around low conviction rates for rape but we have no right telling women to prove it or shut up.. they have no way of proving it.

I have a son, Of course I'd be devastated if he was falsely accused of rape but I also have a daughter.. Im pretty sure men going to prison for a rape they didn't commit rarely happens.. I can't think of one case.
Im a million times more concerned about the dangers facing my daughter.. those concerns seem a lot more justified.

We are there already, an MP the head of DCMS wrote to Rumble and Tik Tok to find out whether RB was monetized and concerned with whether he would be able to profit.

That is government overreach (not to mention potentially jeopardising any criminal cases) and although RB is a monster. Be careful of what you wish for as Labour could use the exact same tactics against GC women or anyone whose opinion the Government does not like. Overreach always starts with Monsters.

Perhaps if you had sent text messages apologising for stealing said TV, and four other unconnected people also said you tried to steal from them, it would be sensible to believe that you had done it, court or no court.

PS Raped women are not fucking stolen TVs. I played along with your ridiculous analogy there but honestly it's a shit thing to compare rape to and is part of the problem with how society views rape and women in general.

FGS. Not everything in the world is about trans people.

Your are seriously calling the results of a four-year investigation by two reputable media outlets "a rumour"?

No one is this thick. What's your agenda?

I read a tweet the other day that said innocent until proven guilty is continually misinterpreted and misused. It is a legal concept, not a societal one. It doesn’t literally mean “we must treat the person accused of a crime as if the crime never happened, until a trial determines that it did”.

Unfortunately, that is exactly what happens every single time a man is accused of rape or sexual assault.

Also read a tweet that took my breath away:

If criminal allegations need to be determined by trial to be real, then rape only exist in women's imagination

https://x.com/wild_womyn/status/1703646878875701613?s=46&t=lcIjyf-T8Zq2cPm1YxSFcw

You've recognised the danger in tribunal of public opinion, whilst simultaneously indulging it... You've proclaimed RB a 'monster' despite him having had no (zero, zilch) opportunity of defence, context, argument, circumstances, judge/jury (all the tenets of the justice system).

PS Raped women are not fucking stolen TVs. I played along with your ridiculous analogy there but honestly it's a shit thing to compare rape to and is part of the problem with how society views rape and women in general.
Yeah well then you might want to take that up with the poster who made the analogy which I was merely replying to @Begsthequestion

Good catch. To be honest, I can't be arsed to argue with the people you recognised as twonks. So I used monster for a peaceful life as anyone who expresses anything other than complete hatred or agreement with the demonisation is labelled.

Rumour is exactly what it is, by every definition of the word; whether you agree with the definition or not is completely incidental (and some would describe an inability to grasp basic comprehension/definition as 'thick').

@LaffTaff
It's not a rumour it's an accusation of rape.

YANBU OP

Many rapists have been found innocent in court and many do not reach court or are even reported

I know a number of men including the man the raped me who haven’t been reported he is guilty and no doubt I am not the only one he has raped

there are many reasons why we don’t report and even if we do it is shocking just how few are convicted

RP is a rapist
JS was a rapist, child rapist
MJ was a child sex abuser

I don’t need these men along with many others to go through the courts or to be legally investigated to know this is the truth

We've already addressed (to a fashion) the semantics ☝️
My point was explicitly related to youtube removing RB's income; none of the women who've made the anonymous claims approached youtube with same.

@LaffTaff

Rape victims have the right to remain anonymous.. can't say I blame them in this case seen as the whole world and his granny are so quick to jump on the poor Russell Brand train.

And I'm sure he'll cope, he's already worth a fortune. He can take the time off to contemplate why this has happened.. He's always talking about karma.. seems it's finally catching up with him. Shame, he seems like a really nice guy. 🥱