Page 11 | To think that “innocent until proven guilty” just doesn’t always apply, particularly in cases of sex offences?

AngeloMysterioso · 2023-09-18T11:34:16+00:00

It should… I know it should. In a fair and just world. But the fact is that, in this country at least, because it’s almost always a he-said-she-said, the level of prosecutions and convictions for rape is so shockingly low that virtually every rapist out there is ^technically^ an innocent man. I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t like trial by media, I don’t think someone should be convicted of a serious crime purely on somebody else’s say-so, but I also know that so many men are being able to get away with it that innocent until proven guilty has become a complete crock of shit. Especially when the perpetrator is famous. Even setting aside the one in the news right now, we also have a recent case of a footballer whose crime was literally recorded and he still got away with it. I mean what the fuck do we do?!

thedancingbear · 21/09/2023 12:30

LaffTaff · 21/09/2023 12:15

We've already addressed (to a fashion) the semantics ☝️
My point was explicitly related to youtube removing RB's income; none of the women who've made the anonymous claims approached youtube with same.

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YouTube etc. are private sector businesses. If they don't want to contract with rapists, that's entirely their choice to make.

No-one's stopping Brand applying for a job in Tescos.

SerendipityJane · 21/09/2023 12:52

thedancingbear · 21/09/2023 09:26

I would be, at this point (sacrifice a few years of a very small number of men's lives inside prisons, if the trade off was a significant decline in sex offences).

Edited

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Sounds suspiciously like the ends justify the means - the last but one refuge of the scoundrel.

AdamRyan · 21/09/2023 12:58

Naunet · 21/09/2023 09:21

Then why is the conversation always about men who kill themselves after being falsely accused, and not about the rape victims who do? Why does no one care about innocent women be called a liar and how HER life can be ruined?

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Yes. With absolutely no evidence to back up these stories.
I too am sick of it

Iwasafool · 21/09/2023 13:03

Naunet · 21/09/2023 09:21

Then why is the conversation always about men who kill themselves after being falsely accused, and not about the rape victims who do? Why does no one care about innocent women be called a liar and how HER life can be ruined?

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A rapist is responsible for what he does. If we as a society use our law enforcement to lock up an innocent man that's on us so it is different. I'm not a rapist, I'm not violent, I don't steal but in my name innocent people (not just rapists) are locked up, when I was a child they were actually killed.

So for me the difference is I am not responsible for rape/robbery/violence but as a member of society I am responsible for the innocent who are locked up.

AdamRyan · 21/09/2023 13:16

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 09:33

Well maybe men can stop raping then, then they won’t need to worry about false accusations because rape won’t exist.

Does your son or husband rape? Are they responsible for the actions of Russell brand? This is a terrible viewpoint.

Sorry, but I don't know why I think I'm against you, now. I just think it's wrong to trivialise the suicide of innocent people - in this case, what I say about men who have not raped anyone.

Please provide an example where a man has committed suicide because he was falsely accused of rape.
I managed to post several examples where women killed themselves after their rapist got off.

I have these arguments with my teen son all the time, there is never any evidence, just assertions by people who may or may not be genuine.

AdamRyan · 21/09/2023 13:19

LaffTaff · 21/09/2023 09:54

To think that “innocent until proven guilty” just doesn’t always apply, particularly in cases of sex offences?

And we're actually living this batshit logic; the twonks who'd call RB a conspiracy theorist are the very ones paving the way for the ever creeping dictatorship where justice is based on an accusation alone.

RB has been all but booted off youtube (had his income removed). And it would appear 48% (YANBU) would be content to have their own, or their partners, income removed on nothing more than a rumour (because we can't even call these accusations; none of the women have actually reported him).

Oh ffs
It is not a rumour. The newspapers printed it. If they didn't have the evidence he'd be suing them.
If my partner was in the papers for sexual abuse of multiple women 1) he'd not be my partner any more 2) yes he'd deserve not being a role model on YouTube any more

SerendipityJane · 21/09/2023 13:22

AdamRyan · 21/09/2023 13:16

Please provide an example where a man has committed suicide because he was falsely accused of rape.
I managed to post several examples where women killed themselves after their rapist got off.

I have these arguments with my teen son all the time, there is never any evidence, just assertions by people who may or may not be genuine.

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We all love a Daily Mail link

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8718345/Sister-boy-17-killed-falsely-accused-rape-shares-ordeal.html

'My brother killed himself after false rape accusation'

Sixth form student Jay Cheshire, of Southampton, hanged himself near the family home in July 2015, weeks after he was falsely accused of rape by a girl.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8718345/Sister-boy-17-killed-falsely-accused-rape-shares-ordeal.html

Passepartoute · 21/09/2023 13:22

CountZacular · 21/09/2023 09:23

The poster offered to post a link - they shouldn’t offer one if they don’t actually have one. And yes, I think a lot of us would like more evidence because false convictions are rare. What’s more likely is someone being acquitted on a technicality than them not actually being a rapist so actually seeing these open/close definitely false accusations would be nice as so many posters are more concerned about that than actual rapists ruining women’s life and continuing to walk around on our streets.

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Yes, fortunately false convictions are relatively rare now, because we have a high burden of proof. If it is changed for any category of offence, that will inevitably change. Not only can we not say as a society that that is acceptable, it does victims no favours - if the wrong person is convicted, it leaves the danger in many cases that the real criminal is left free to carry on.

Where do we draw the line on this? Should we have a lower burden of proof only for rape cases, or does it extend to other sexual assaults? How about murder, GBH, aggravated burglary, abduction, blackmail, fraud? How indeed, about every other offence on the statute books?

AdamRyan · 21/09/2023 13:25

No other offences make the victim go to court and be cross examined about all the ways the crime could conceivably not have happened.

Usually the victim makes a statement and that is taken as read.

As I said rape also has a built in defence that the rapist "reasonably believed" they had consent. That also isn't there for other crimes.

So the burden of proof for rape is already higher than the crimes you mentioned. Completely false analogy to suggest all crimes would need a lower burden of proof.

AdamRyan · 21/09/2023 13:26

it leaves the danger in many cases that the real criminal is left free to carry on.
You do realise that 98% of rapes leave the rapist free to carry on raping?

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 13:35

@AdamRyan I'm not here to argue with you, darling so chill out.

I was responding to @Naunet who thinks it's appropriate to dismiss an innocent person committing suicide. Nothing more. Nothing less.

And the idiotic comment that non-raping men are responsible for the rapes others commit. Do you think an innocent black man is responsible for gang violence? It's a stupid equivalence.

I'm sure you can find examples of suicide and false allegations online, and of rape victims foi g the same. No, I don't have a random collection of suicides to hand.

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 13:36

I don't think it's acceptable to be callous under the excuse of caring about rape victims. Let's have a sensible discussion. None of us are enemies here, we all want the same thing.

CallumDansTransitVan · 21/09/2023 13:42

AdamRyan · 21/09/2023 13:25

No other offences make the victim go to court and be cross examined about all the ways the crime could conceivably not have happened.

Usually the victim makes a statement and that is taken as read.

As I said rape also has a built in defence that the rapist "reasonably believed" they had consent. That also isn't there for other crimes.

So the burden of proof for rape is already higher than the crimes you mentioned. Completely false analogy to suggest all crimes would need a lower burden of proof.

There are all manner of other crimes where the 'victim' will be questioned in court.
Common Assault, ABH/GBH, Fraud, Motoring Offences where somebody is injured are just some I can quickly think of, off the top of my head.

CallumDansTransitVan · 21/09/2023 13:49

Shrinkray · 21/09/2023 02:08

@CallumDansTransitVan I believe so but I think that is more based on them screening for perceived potential biases in prosepctive jury members, rather than an objective test of rationality administered by the court as I'm suggesting, not by either the prosecution or defence with a view to what would be favourable or unfavourable to them.

It wouldn't solve many of the issues in this thread of course, but I've long held this view that this reform would be a huge improvement to the jury system for trials of all crimes and enable higher levels of confidence in the legal system, increase the likelihood of conviction of those who are guilty and reduce the (already low) rate of wrongful convictions.

I think you have made an excellent suggestion. I have no doubt, that if you have a group of 12 people, there is a good chance that there will be those with more and less forceful characters among them. You may have one who cajoles others round to their thinking, without actually letting them use the evidence to make their own decision.

Removing people with this sort of psychological make up along with those with clear biases, would certainly help.

LaffTaff · 21/09/2023 13:51

AdamRyan · 21/09/2023 13:19

Oh ffs
It is not a rumour. The newspapers printed it. If they didn't have the evidence he'd be suing them.
If my partner was in the papers for sexual abuse of multiple women 1) he'd not be my partner any more 2) yes he'd deserve not being a role model on YouTube any more

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Respectfully, what you would do isn't remotely relevant to the discussion.

Your attestation that 'the newspapers printed it' (ergo it must be true) is a stark illustration of what people are calling trial by media.

It's rumoured that RB has committed criminal offences. He hasn't yet responded to those rumours; legal action is possibly something he is considering.

borninthe80esss · 21/09/2023 13:52

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 13:35

@AdamRyan I'm not here to argue with you, darling so chill out.

I was responding to @Naunet who thinks it's appropriate to dismiss an innocent person committing suicide. Nothing more. Nothing less.

And the idiotic comment that non-raping men are responsible for the rapes others commit. Do you think an innocent black man is responsible for gang violence? It's a stupid equivalence.

I'm sure you can find examples of suicide and false allegations online, and of rape victims foi g the same. No, I don't have a random collection of suicides to hand.

Wow! Racism.. How lovely.

thedancingbear · 21/09/2023 13:58

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 13:35

@AdamRyan I'm not here to argue with you, darling so chill out.

I was responding to @Naunet who thinks it's appropriate to dismiss an innocent person committing suicide. Nothing more. Nothing less.

And the idiotic comment that non-raping men are responsible for the rapes others commit. Do you think an innocent black man is responsible for gang violence? It's a stupid equivalence.

I'm sure you can find examples of suicide and false allegations online, and of rape victims foi g the same. No, I don't have a random collection of suicides to hand.

Black people = gang violence?

What racist shit.

LaffTaff · 21/09/2023 14:02

thedancingbear · 21/09/2023 13:58

Black people = gang violence?

What racist shit.

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I think maybe you've missed the nuance in @November2024Mummy's post. She was acknowledging the ridiculousness of such thoughts (thoughts which plenty of prejudiced people DO hold!).

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 14:06

@dancingbear

Thank you, from the mum of two black sons.

Can you answer the question now?

Is it fine to arrest an innocent black man because well, gang grime is prevalent in low income neighbourhoods?

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 14:09

If men are responsible for rape, then:

Black men are responsible for gang violence.

No?

It's stupid to claim that an innocent individual is responsible for the behaviour of others. You if you believe men are responsible for rape, are racist. You saying that people are responsible for crimes they didn't commit, and are collateral.

I don't even get why you're disagreeing with me here? It's stupid. It is the exact mentality racist people use.

CallumDansTransitVan · 21/09/2023 14:11

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 14:06

@dancingbear

Thank you, from the mum of two black sons.

Can you answer the question now?

Is it fine to arrest an innocent black man because well, gang grime is prevalent in low income neighbourhoods?

I read the post as saying it would be wrong to allege one black lad is responsible for gang violence. In the same way as we shouldn't hold a person responsible of a crime without a court conviction. Anthing else is just rumour mongering.

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 14:12

Yes, exactly. Weirdos here think 'black' is an insult or something. Or maybe live in a world where they're oblivious to the stereotypes black propel are labelled with?

SerendipityJane · 21/09/2023 14:16

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 13:36

I don't think it's acceptable to be callous under the excuse of caring about rape victims. Let's have a sensible discussion. None of us are enemies here, we all want the same thing.

I wouldn't be so sure of that ...

CallumDansTransitVan · 21/09/2023 14:17

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 14:12

Yes, exactly. Weirdos here think 'black' is an insult or something. Or maybe live in a world where they're oblivious to the stereotypes black propel are labelled with?

Do you think Brand is guilty of the crimes stated in the program?

borninthe80esss · 21/09/2023 14:17

November2024Mummy · 21/09/2023 14:09

If men are responsible for rape, then:

Black men are responsible for gang violence.

No?

It's stupid to claim that an innocent individual is responsible for the behaviour of others. You if you believe men are responsible for rape, are racist. You saying that people are responsible for crimes they didn't commit, and are collateral.

I don't even get why you're disagreeing with me here? It's stupid. It is the exact mentality racist people use.

Holy shit at the level of stupidity here.

If someone gets stabbed to death in the street by a gang and FIVE witnesses pick out the same gang member in a police line up then it's safe to assume there is a reasonable probability of that person being guilty.

Being black has fuck all to do with it!!

Just like the evidence against Russell Brand.

BUT FUCK RAPE VICTIMS AND FUCK THE STATISTICS... BECAUSE YOU KNOW POOR INNOCENT MEN!!

This is essentially what you are saying!!