20mph in Wales - why???

[Flpwer]

I don't understand why Mark Drakeford has done this - surely this will just cause more road rage??? Is this a money-making ploy because they know a lot of people will probably drive over it as 20mph feels so unnatural.

Assuming that you would have been averaging thirty, and will now be averaging twenty (which won't be the case because you will have had to stop at junctions no matter what the limit is, so the averages will be much closer together) then a 14 minute journey will have become a 21 minute journey.

Just imagine what you could be doing with that extra seven minutes.

Because most of the emissions data I've seen for cars shows optimal emissions somewhere between 30mph and roughly 56mph pretty solidly over the past 40 years. Below 30 and above approx 60 and emissions rise.

Gearboxes will be designed with 30mph/50kph in mind, as that's the limit in urban areas across most of Europe. As 20mph/30kph limits become more common, the gearboxes of the ICE cars still in production will be redesigned to run efficiently at the lower limit.

Never mind that though, on pollution/fuel economy grounds perhaps we need to reduce the motorway/dual carriageway speed limit to 60mph.

I could be finishing my coffee. I already leave the house at 710.

I've had to fight my car all the way to stay under 20. It wants to go 24.

Sounds like a you problem

It's horrendous OP. The road rage this is causing is going to cause an accident sooner or later.

Ironically I don't mind pootling along at 20 (once you get used to how slow it feels) but the tailgating and beeping is making every trip a nightmare. Also people are starting to dangerously overtake on single lane roads.

I don’t get how the 20mph is getting the blame for road rage induced accidents - this is fully the fault of the drivers getting the road rage. Anyone who can’t drive a bit slower than they’d like without flying into a dangerous rage doesn’t deserve a driving license and if this can flush them out and get the cunts fined or, better, banned then it’s win win.

I live in Wales.
I cannot stand Drakeford. He won't be happy until Wales grinds to a complete halt.
Our transport links are abysmal thanks to him shelving the M4 relief road, Cardiff airport is a joke and now this 20mph.
There was no mandate for this, it's not needed and it's certainly wanted.
Welsh Labour is a dictatorship.
I voted against having a Welsh assembly as my first vote at 18, and I was right about it back then.

So not really on the side of Wales are you, conservatives forever in the thrall of Westminster, while I don't completely agree in the direction Drakeford takes I'm not sure why the Tories are so against him, a dictatorship just because your party can't come up with ideas that the Cymru can get on board with in a democracy, before devolution Wales had to stomach the brutal policies of their oppressors and now we get to benefit our own population the Tories can't help but cry into their cornflakes, aww bless

You are Andrew RT Davies right?**

OP I can completely understand what you mean, I live in north wales and a lot of it is country roads, all 30mph that will be changing to 20mph, I agree it’s a straight country road where basically there is just bushes/trees! Nothing else at all..

obviously around the schools in my area it’s already 20mph, personally I think it should be less then that for going near a school.. so near schools/crossings all completely fair enough.. but no need for the rural roads around this area! People going slower on these roads could potentially cause more problems, you will have certain drivers who will decide to go faster anyway! Resulting in more overtaking and on the Welsh rural roads and with the blind corners this really isn’t a great idea.

also OP hasn’t stated she is the only poster to live in north wales😂 she has just stated how different wales is and it’s not comparable to the bigger cities! People really need to chill the heck down😂..

According to a Telegraph feature on 13 September, Wales has lost a third of its tourists since 2019. If you look at the comments section, many are saying the 20mph limit will put them off visiting us.
BTW I don't read the Telegraph but that article popped up in my feed. As a Welsh person, just reading the ignorant, anti Welsh comments of its readers makes me boil. But there is no doubt that this reduction to 20 will make the country less attractive.

I am pro Wales @JustAnotherPoster00 but under the Welsh govt our standards in education have fallen, our NHS is crumbling and poverty is on the increase especially in the valleys which have stagnated.
Welsh govt had the opportunity to grow the Welsh economy ( cheap labour and previously good transport links) and they haven't.

also OP hasn’t stated she is the only poster to live in north wales😂 she has just stated how different wales is and it’s not comparable to the bigger cities!
Country roads have the worst accident records. All the more reason for slowing down.

People really need to chill the heck down😂..
I quite agree. No need to drive around like a cat with the zoomies, calm down and slow down. Stop tailgating, stop using the horn (except in emergencies).

If I remember correctly, many business owners considered the drop in tourist numbers to be a blessed relief. It just means that the "no vacancies" and "fully booked" signs go up a little bit later. Many parts of Wales are certainly over-touristed, the parking chaos on the Ogwen Pass is a testament to that.

Of all of the considerations I make when choosing where to go on holiday, the speed limit has never come up. Those commenters are talking out of their arses.

Numbers to Cornwall down by 20% and considering once in Cornwall, your lucky to ever get to 20mph, i doubt thats a reason to stay away.. perhaps super high prices and crappy weather has a bigger influence?

Like everything there'll be frothing but decades later it'll be the norm.

See: drink driving limit, seatbelts, Back2Sleep, smoking indoors, etc...

I drove into my local town from my small, rural village earlier today. A 14 mile round trip.

Outside of the town centre (where you'd be hard pushed to drive at 30mph anyway) there was approximately a mile of the whole journey that was now 20mph. I noticed no real difference in travel time.

The biggest problem was an utter numpty right up my backside as we reached the 20mph sign. He was clearly struggling with it far more than I was.

It uses less fuel to travel more slowly and there are also much lower emissions from brakes and tyres at slow speeds - the fuel usage/emissions isn't constant regardless of speed

What source are you using for this? Because most of the emissions data I've seen for cars shows optimal emissions somewhere between 30mph and roughly 56mph pretty solidly over the past 40 years. Below 30 and above approx 60 and emissions rise.

Plus, of course, each and every car will be on the road for longer, each journey. Not sure how that helps the 'clean air' argument.

We’ve already had impatient people overtaking us doing the 20mph limit today.
It’s going to take them having an accident for some people to begin to take notice of the new limit.

Drivers are an impatient lot,both sure why everyone is in such a rush

So you agree - below 30mph creates more pollution. What a long winded way of saying it.

20mph in most of Europe has been in place for more than a generation with no resultant change in car technology to shift the most carbon efficient range to be below 30mph.

There are good reasons to have 20mph and pedestrian priority in many residential roads. It isn't necessary to make stuff up to prop up the case.

Outside of residential roads the case is weaker and sad-face pictures designed to appeal to emotions are generally a sign of lack of actual evidence to support the argument.

What a load of nonsense. Precisely none of the M4 will have a 20 mph speed limit. I've driven the length of it from the bridge to Pont Abraham twice today. It's all still 70 mph apart from the bits wwhich already had 50 limits and one stretch of roadworks around Swansea.

And the whole "wherever there are street lights" thing is a bit of a red herring in practice. It's the same rule that theoretically applied to the 30 mph limit before, and in reality there were signs 99% of the time whenever the limit changed to 30 mph. It will be the same with the new limits. They'll just change the 30 signs to 20 ones. They can't enforce a 20 mph limit if you just passed a whacking great big "30" sign, can they?

Only if you agree that permitting 70mph on motorways/dual carriageways is also polluting and we should limit to the optimum 56mph (90kph). It would be quite nice if the Irish lorries actually stuck to limits on the A55, I've clocked them doing more than 10mph over their limit.

In built-up areas you're going to get pollution from cars anyway, with all of the stopping and starting. The answer is to get rid of the cars.

Councils had the option to retain 30 limits on some roads.

I realise your ambition is simply to get rid of all cars but your argument isn't served by throwing in random claims outside of the point being discussed - ie lower speed limits in Wales.

The fact that cars are optimally efficient between 30-56mph isn't a matter to "agree on" its a fact. (And is the origin of the long running 56mph limit in parts of the US which date back to the oil crises).

The case for the 20mph limit is made largely through the medium of sadface pictures. In residential roads there is a good case for 20mph, not so much on main roads where the issue is far more likely to be poor driving. That driving is the issue to address but its much easier to publish sadface pictures and posture around making spurious claims with the backing of the anti car lobby.

If you want to start a separate thread on speed limits at the other end then yes, I do have opinions on managing larger roads as well. This thread isn't that discussion.

@C8H10N4O2 We ve a new ish 30mph speed limit nr me, enforced with cameras, my car (1.5 diesel) will be in 4th gear, 1200 revs and 30mph, i tried it yesterday at 20mph, 3rd gear 1200 revs.

"Efficiency" will depend on engine size, driving style & fuel used, there is so much congestion and junctions etc etc in the UK that short periods of time spent at 20mph is going to make no difference at all, esp as we all move to EV's.

People just don't like change.

Personally I would rather existing speed limits were enforced, particularly in rural areas where there tend to be very few speed cameras and traffic police.