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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To believe that 'simple' theft will have the as bad an impact on the world as climate change?

77 replies

SeeingClearlyNow · 16/09/2023 09:09

The news is bad. Some is worse than others but it's pretty awful out there. That's a given.

What has really upset me this morning is an article about shoplifting which is reaching epic proportions. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/15/its-organised-looting-uk-in-grip-of-a-shoplifting-epidemic-say-store-owners?

What I'm finding it difficult to understand is while I get that there is a rogue element of society who shoplift for profit there is a much larger group of people who buy the goods, knowing that they are stolen. This is supporting the criminal gang activity and encouraging more. And it gets worse and worse and worse.

I know that people justify theft of many forms as only being against big companies. What I am struggling with is the knowledge that it is all joined up. Not only is not every shop owned by big business but even if it is, at the end of the day the money lost will be clawed back from individuals. It's the same for 'fronting' on insurance, lying about your age or status to get a discount you are not eligible for or even fly tipping. We, the individuals suffer and always end up paying in some way at the end. We're all part of the same society.

So - my AIBU - Why don't we see this as a spiral into lawlessness similar in danger to climate change and, as a society, do something to change it? Something fundamental that starts with reinforcing social codes and stops passing blame and responsibility to the government or institutions like the police. Just like doing what we can to stop climate change we can all do our bit to support each other in reinforcing right and wrong and the basic values of society.
What's going wrong?

OP posts:
WaitingForSunnyDays · 16/09/2023 09:15

I'm with you. My local Boots has almost nothing on the shelves as they had so much theft from the local gang of thieves. Everything has to be got from "in the back", which means no more browsing for what you might like. I even saw someone asking on Facebook to be pm-ed the best place to flytip as they apparently couldn't afford whatever the council was asking to dispose of the waste legally 😢

Original poster
SeeingClearlyNow · 16/09/2023 09:19

Ok this is an extreme example but if we knew that buying stolen goods causes cancer then (I'm assuming) people wouldn't do it. Obviously it doesn't but it does have a profound and sometimes irreversible impact on the place where we all live i.e society. So why does it still happen?

OP posts:
Yellowlegobrick · 16/09/2023 09:21

The quickest way to take the sting out of organised gangs shoplifting is to stop buying stolen stuff.

If they can't fence it its not worth stealing it.

Whats driving it is, sadly, people buying.

AromanticSpices · 16/09/2023 09:22

It's not going to cause crop failure, mass displacement and international war, so not sure what the comparison is.

Huge corporations aren't making profits from it either.

But I agree we need better funding for the criminal justice system, higher employment etc.

Original poster
SeeingClearlyNow · 16/09/2023 09:23

Yellowlegobrick · 16/09/2023 09:21

The quickest way to take the sting out of organised gangs shoplifting is to stop buying stolen stuff.

If they can't fence it its not worth stealing it.

Whats driving it is, sadly, people buying.

Yes. Absolutely. But why don't people see the correlation between buying stolen goods and general societal breakdown?

OP posts:
Hazey19 · 16/09/2023 09:23

I agree with you and I’m not sure what the answer is. Our local boots is the same as a pp says. Nothing on the shelves and being robbed daily. How they are still going I do not know!

TheThingIsYeah · 16/09/2023 09:23

Re: flytipping. Councils really don't help themselves on this one. Our council has now introduced a booking system at the local dump. Imagine it, you have a load of waste and you have to log on and make an appointment for a 15 minute window, and oh no, you can't take it the same day. Has to be tomorrow or ahead. Like many activities now, nothing can be done on a whim. And then when you get to the dump there's so much stuff that's now excluded and types of vehicles excluded you wonder what's the point. Then the the same council scratches its head and wonders why flytipping - and the associated costs in tidying it up - has soared. Public sector thinking.

Original poster
SeeingClearlyNow · 16/09/2023 09:25

AromanticSpices · 16/09/2023 09:22

It's not going to cause crop failure, mass displacement and international war, so not sure what the comparison is.

Huge corporations aren't making profits from it either.

But I agree we need better funding for the criminal justice system, higher employment etc.

Are you sure?

Society collapses and farmers will stop to farm. Cue untended and failing crops, starvation etc etc

Blaming government/ demanding funding doesn't resolve the issue. On a very binary level if you buy stolen goods or pay cash for a VATable transaction then you're denying the state cash to do this anyway.

OP posts:
Pizzand · 16/09/2023 09:26

I suspect everything will be like Argos soon where there isn't anything on the shelves and food shopping will become more online orders and collection. Sad isn't it but if people can't be trusted to be decent people and we no longer have a police force equipped to deal with it then shops will start to do what they can to protect their stock and their staff.

Original poster
SeeingClearlyNow · 16/09/2023 09:27

TheThingIsYeah · 16/09/2023 09:23

Re: flytipping. Councils really don't help themselves on this one. Our council has now introduced a booking system at the local dump. Imagine it, you have a load of waste and you have to log on and make an appointment for a 15 minute window, and oh no, you can't take it the same day. Has to be tomorrow or ahead. Like many activities now, nothing can be done on a whim. And then when you get to the dump there's so much stuff that's now excluded and types of vehicles excluded you wonder what's the point. Then the the same council scratches its head and wonders why flytipping - and the associated costs in tidying it up - has soared. Public sector thinking.

Councils don't help themselves but personal inconvenience doesn't justify it. Basically it is saying that because I am lazy I don't have to follow the rules...whatever they are.

OP posts:
Testarossa44 · 16/09/2023 09:31

My mum volunteers in a charity shop, and they quite often have items stolen. From a charity shop ffs! Things are usually 2nd hand and only a few pounds! I don’t get that at all.

Bluevelvetsofa · 16/09/2023 09:33

A local supermarket had a fenced off section with bins for clothing and other donations. For years it’s worked perfectly well, but has now had to be closed altogether, because fly tippers began to use it and as soon as it was cleared, the rubbish was back. The proper council tip is literally yards away and their system is very straightforward.

We have witnessed someone in a store wrench an expensive mobile phone from the stand and run out of the door to a waiting car. The phone will be no good, but it will be sold to someone who thinks it is and the thief gets the money to spend on drugs, which is the purpose in the first place.

I don’t know what the answer is either, but I agree that every transaction will be online soon, to avoid theft and abuse of staff.

ShipSpace · 16/09/2023 09:36

You’re thinking about this the wrong way round.

There will never be a way to stop people thieving or to stop people buying stolen goods if this is what they need to do to survive.

It’s basic human survival. For many people, buying stolen goods is the only way they afford to live.

I would wager most people buying stolen goods don’t like it any more than you do. They’re left with no choice.

In order to solve it, you would have to take away the need to buy stolen goods.

This means affordable housing costs in relation to earnings; better standards of education; closing the gap between rich and poor…etc

CurlewKate · 16/09/2023 09:38

Possibly becauae shoplifting isn't going to raise the sea level and cause flooding in much of the world? Just a though..

User12334tt6899p · 16/09/2023 09:39

Why do people shoplift? Why do people buy stolen goods?
I'd say its because we've perpetuated a society that values money over human dignity. If the only measure of value is your bank balance why should people who have been shut out of opportunities to become rich care about a society that doesn't value them?

Notpooryet · 16/09/2023 09:39

SeeingClearlyNow · 16/09/2023 09:23

Yes. Absolutely. But why don't people see the correlation between buying stolen goods and general societal breakdown?

Show quote history

Because there isn't one. Shoplifting is a chronic problem which ebbs and flows with the economy and panicking about societal breakdown because you have read a headline is irrational catastophizing.
Doesn't mean it shouldn't be tackled, of course.

Wanderingllama · 16/09/2023 09:40

It will cause massive unemployment when shops close because it's not viable anymore. SMEs are the biggest employers in UK basically and they will go first. Rest will movw onto cohnter sefbicw as pp said Argos style which will also require less staff.

And no, don't believe the heart breaking "they have no other options to steal/buy stolen🥺".

Original poster
SeeingClearlyNow · 16/09/2023 09:41

@ShipSpace how do you afford those things if the businesses that fund them via taxes are no longer functioning?

Surely we as individuals have a responsibility to support basic moral tenets.

I just don't believe that everyone who buys knock off goods or defrauds insurance companies 'needs' to steal in this way.

OP posts:
Notpooryet · 16/09/2023 09:42

@ShipSpace

Yeah, people buy stolen iPhones just to survive.

Naive.

MelodiousThunk · 16/09/2023 09:42

TheThingIsYeah · 16/09/2023 09:23

Re: flytipping. Councils really don't help themselves on this one. Our council has now introduced a booking system at the local dump. Imagine it, you have a load of waste and you have to log on and make an appointment for a 15 minute window, and oh no, you can't take it the same day. Has to be tomorrow or ahead. Like many activities now, nothing can be done on a whim. And then when you get to the dump there's so much stuff that's now excluded and types of vehicles excluded you wonder what's the point. Then the the same council scratches its head and wonders why flytipping - and the associated costs in tidying it up - has soared. Public sector thinking.

Our county council has introduced the same thing. However they aren’t responsible for clearing up flytipping - that falls to the borough council. It’s a win-win as far as the county council are concerned.

Original poster
SeeingClearlyNow · 16/09/2023 09:43

CurlewKate · 16/09/2023 09:38

Possibly becauae shoplifting isn't going to raise the sea level and cause flooding in much of the world? Just a though..

It's a parallel not a direct like for like comparison. Populations are extinguished in many ways.

OP posts:
Ducksinthebath · 16/09/2023 09:44

I agree 100% and think so called ‘soft’ drugs are much the same. They’re both just the thin end of the wedge in an increasingly lawless society.

billysillydilly · 16/09/2023 09:44

It's like taking drugs though, loads of mc people do and then tut about local gang crime.

many people value their own pleasure, bargain, etc over others

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 16/09/2023 09:45

this doesn’t happen in societies with low inequality, but does in places where poverty co-exists with unattainable wealth. we truly need to help our poorest out of poverty and do stop exploiting them as low wage slaves.

billysillydilly · 16/09/2023 09:46

It’s basic human survival. For many people, buying stolen goods is the only way they afford to live.

Why is it expensive phones that get nicked? Or the cars targeted are always RR? Yes some people have no choice but many do.