To believe that 'simple' theft will have the as bad an impact on the world as climate change?

[SeeingClearlyNow]

The news is bad. Some is worse than others but it's pretty awful out there. That's a given.

What has really upset me this morning is an article about shoplifting which is reaching epic proportions. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/15/its-organised-looting-uk-in-grip-of-a-shoplifting-epidemic-say-store-owners?

What I'm finding it difficult to understand is while I get that there is a rogue element of society who shoplift for profit there is a much larger group of people who buy the goods, knowing that they are stolen. This is supporting the criminal gang activity and encouraging more. And it gets worse and worse and worse.

I know that people justify theft of many forms as only being against big companies. What I am struggling with is the knowledge that it is all joined up. Not only is not every shop owned by big business but even if it is, at the end of the day the money lost will be clawed back from individuals. It's the same for 'fronting' on insurance, lying about your age or status to get a discount you are not eligible for or even fly tipping. We, the individuals suffer and always end up paying in some way at the end. We're all part of the same society.

So - my AIBU - Why don't we see this as a spiral into lawlessness similar in danger to climate change and, as a society, do something to change it? Something fundamental that starts with reinforcing social codes and stops passing blame and responsibility to the government or institutions like the police. Just like doing what we can to stop climate change we can all do our bit to support each other in reinforcing right and wrong and the basic values of society.
What's going wrong?

It’s great that you have a moral compass and a social conscience.
Belief it or not, you’re not in the minority.

Youre in danger of coming across as pious and narrow minded in your views however.

Its rather rigid to state “stealing and murder are wrong with a capital W” ..people need to understand- as if that’s the solution?

Consider a scenario where a desperate person is stealing food to keep her child alive or a devoted wife assists her terminally ill husband in dying after he begs her. Certainly in the eyes of the law, there are mitigating circumstances.

It would pay to Look beyond your own experience and realise human behaviour is complex and often flawed.

because it could be debated that some of society they dont always see or envision the bigger picture

plus with society the laws and morals can alter, over time

If only everyone was like you, hey OP?

Exactly this. Inequality has huge impacts on society:

Economic
Less equal societies have less stable economies. High levels of income inequality are linked to economic instability, financial crisis, debt and inflation.

Social Mobility and Education
Unequal societies have less social mobility and lower scores in maths, reading and science.

Crime
Inequality increases property crime and violent crime. A reduction of inequality from Spanish levels to Canadian levels would lead to a 20% reduction in homicides and a 23% reduction in robberies.

Health
Living in an unequal society causes stress and status anxiety, which may damage your health. In more equal societies people live longer, are less likely to be mentally ill or obese and there are lower rates of infant mortality.

Trust, Participation, Attitudes and Happiness
Inequality affects how you see those around you and your level of happiness. People in less equal societies are less likely to trust each other, less likely to engage in social or civic participation, and less likely to say they're happy.

equalitytrust.org.uk/about-inequality/impacts

@MrsSchrute I think you've got it. But what's the answer? Where do we (all) start? I don't think it is a question of just saying that it is up to government because a) we are all part of the same society b) it doesn't seem to have worked thus far.

“We are starving. There is no more bread, and we have nothing to eat” the poor cried.

“Not my problem you can't afford bread" The rich man said, as if he did not snatch away the grain by his own greedy hands and create filling bread for his own overflowing mouth.

“We are dying. There is no more medicine, and we’re all ill" the poor cried.

“Not my problem you don’t take care of yourselves" the rich man said, as if he did not buy all the medicine and raise prices so high the gods themselves would not be able to reach.

The poor stopped crying, and the rich man was satisfied…

Until they came knocking at his door one night; their faces sunken, their flesh decaying, their eyes sightless, monsters of the rich man’s own making.

As they devoured his flesh, the rich man cried, “Please, spare me!”

“Not our fault you fattened yourself for slaughter" the ravenous poor said.

I have recently paid someone who did work on our house to remove the waste.
The thought of fly tipping would not enter my head.
I have no respect for the scrubbers who do this, mostly whilst driving in their huge gas guzzling cars- oh the irony.
Councils have had their funding cut by the government. Do you think the employees who collect rubbish work for free? No, they are paid by the tax payer. Plenty of fly tippers do not pay tax or council tax. They want it all ways.
Many countries do not collect any rubbish from residents houses, the residents take their rubbish to central locations. They pay less council tax. It works very well where my relatives live. The surrounding areas are clean, far cleaner than most of the UK.
As for stealing, yes I agree with you op. It will result in shops pulling out of the high street and what will be left? Boarded up shops looking a complete mess. Then those who bought the stolen goods will moan that ‘the council gave let the town go to rack and ruin.’
I think a lot of people are either too thick or don’t care about the connection between their actions and the consequence.

I think you’re viewing an issue in society from a very privileged, narrow view point.

I don’t want to be unkind- you sound like a caring person..
but I find people spouting idealistic notions on social media as if they have a ground breaking thesis on mankind really short sighted and tedious.

Same with facilitating tax evasion by buying "duty free" cigarettes and booze and "cash in hand" jobs. If people stopped paying "tax free", it would soon start to reduce the size of the black economy.

Ridiculous to compare it to climate change.

It's a social problem that needs solving, but it is not an existential threat.

overall one part of the issue too is the result of human emotions, even if say in an idea society everyone had a very high standard of living across the globe, then there would still be greed, jealousy, ect

Nail on the head. It's lack of policing, a soft criminal justice system, etc. I see it in my day-job as an accountant. HMRC have gone awol and don't do anywhere near as many "inspections" as they did in the 90s (Thanks Gordon for your stupid reorganisations!), so more and more people aren't declaring all their income, claiming for non-allowable costs, etc., because the chances of them being caught are now pretty close to zero. Same with lack of "policing" of fly tipping, dogs, traffic offences, etc - lack of "policing" is just encouraging more and more people to disregard the laws.

@Badbadbunny so it is all on the government to sort then? Individuals have no part to play in trying to keep the show on the road?

Think more broadly about how society has evolved since the beginning of time, compare how people survive in deprived areas of the world and the changes in societal behaviour and attitudes as a result of war or economic depression. Look at studies into criminal psychology.

Stating that Stealing is (morally) wrong, we need to do something is simply stating the obvious.

Im surprised you’re not more open minded having volunteered for the disadvantaged and vulnerable in your local community?
People aren’t “good” or “bad”

It's not about people being good or bad.

It's about the concept that at the end of the day we're all in the same community and that the future of that community is on us all. Specifically it is about stealing not being a 'petty' or 'victimless' crime but realising that a lot of it happens because there is a market for stolen goods. That market comprises people who are part of the community, not all of whom, 'need' to buy stolen goods.

My analogy with climate change is that if there is no community then human society as we see it will die. We may not choke to death through heat exhaustion or be killed in terrible floods but the world we know will be gone. I think that is pretty serious. I put this in AIBU because I genuinely wanted to understand if I was totally off kilter or not.

What are we supposed to do? People stealing are either desperate or dangerous. I’m not going to risk my safety when I’ve got a family relying on me at home.

Yes I think you’re off kilter to think that sections of society who do not abide by the laws will end civilisation.

Society will always have an underbelly- more apparent during times of financial crisis.

I was encouraging you to consider the complex reasons behind criminality (in your case small time theft) and how people are often a result of their upbringing and circumstance.

Preaching to people that stealing is “wrong” because it harms a community (and not only that- it will Destroy Mankind!) just comes across as a bit small minded and naïve.

Weird comparing it to climate change. Climate change is much more worrying in my opinion.

I think that the shoplifting epidemic is a symptom of society’s breakdown, not a cause.

expensive phones and RRs are shipped abroad almost immediately.

This is what you need to think about, OP.

Your current train of thought is almost verging on being part of the problem.

You have morals, but “they” don’t.

You would never buy stolen goods, but “they” would.

”They” should all think like you, and then the world would be a better place.

It’s exactly that inequality that drives the problem.

What if your life experiences meant that you were “they” who doesn’t understand the moral compass?

@SeeingClearlyNow because climate change is existential and is already killing tens of thousands of people each year. I'm not in any way condoning theft. But shop lifting isn't killing people.

We need to fix the cause of the issue.

It's a proven statistical fact that crime increases during austerity. For obvious reasons.

You can't blame a hungry person for theft, when the cost of food has dramatically increased, but wages haven't.

I'm also really confused by your comparison. I really don't see the connection.

You're being overdramatic.

The rise in theft isn't as extreme as you make out - most people still purchase most of their goods legally.

So yes, totally off kilter IMO.

Climate change is way more of a risk.