To believe that 'simple' theft will have the as bad an impact on the world as climate change?

[SeeingClearlyNow]

The news is bad. Some is worse than others but it's pretty awful out there. That's a given.

What has really upset me this morning is an article about shoplifting which is reaching epic proportions. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/15/its-organised-looting-uk-in-grip-of-a-shoplifting-epidemic-say-store-owners?

What I'm finding it difficult to understand is while I get that there is a rogue element of society who shoplift for profit there is a much larger group of people who buy the goods, knowing that they are stolen. This is supporting the criminal gang activity and encouraging more. And it gets worse and worse and worse.

I know that people justify theft of many forms as only being against big companies. What I am struggling with is the knowledge that it is all joined up. Not only is not every shop owned by big business but even if it is, at the end of the day the money lost will be clawed back from individuals. It's the same for 'fronting' on insurance, lying about your age or status to get a discount you are not eligible for or even fly tipping. We, the individuals suffer and always end up paying in some way at the end. We're all part of the same society.

So - my AIBU - Why don't we see this as a spiral into lawlessness similar in danger to climate change and, as a society, do something to change it? Something fundamental that starts with reinforcing social codes and stops passing blame and responsibility to the government or institutions like the police. Just like doing what we can to stop climate change we can all do our bit to support each other in reinforcing right and wrong and the basic values of society.
What's going wrong?

Okay, why do we think we are currently seeing this increase in theft at a time when we also have an enormous cost of living crisis, a widening gap between rich & poor, and unaffordable basic housing costs?

That’s just coincidence, is it?

I don't understand how shops can even find staff to employ now as who would want that type of job? I assume pay will need to increase (it should anyway) & costs will be passed on.

Okay, why do we think we are currently seeing this increase in theft at a time when we also have an enormous cost of living crisis, a widening gap between rich & poor, and unaffordable basic housing costs?

We have had a gap between rich & poor for years & unaffordable housing. There's certainly an element of that but I think entitlement has increased as has the knowledge that there isn't the police force, judicial system, prison space etc to actually punish people.

If drugs are a root cause, it’s another reason to decriminalise them. Let people take them if they want to, and use the tax revenue for better policing, support for addicts and helping society.

Of course people shouldn’t buy stolen goods, but in a cost of living crisis, people will be tempted. As someone has said above, we’re judged on our possessions not our souls these days. Sad but inevitable consequence of capitalism.

I'm pretty certain I could steal something today & nothing would happen to me.

And my parents couldn't afford expensive branded trainers when I was a kid, the solution wasn't for them or myself to steal.

I am pretty sure that to survive happily I don't need a lot of the stuff that I consider a normal part of living.

The 'right' to a new iPhone or coffee machine is a new one in society. The expectation that authority will provide all the solutions similar.

David Cameron was a knob but the concept of the Big Society isn't entirely wrong.

Theft is wrong. It is morally wrong but it also has a negative impact on society which compounds that wrong.

I may want something a lot because it would make my life better. I'm not going to steal it because that is wrong. It's wrong like killing is wrong or destroying someone's property. They are all wrong. With a capital W.

You think petty theft will have the same global impact as climate change?

Is this a joke? I mean I definitely don’t think you’re #SeeingClearlyNow 😂

Sections of society will always break the law- ‘‘twas ever thus.
The high street’s days as a shopping outlet are numbered- to be replaced with an almost online market for goods.

We’re not experiencing an “epidemic” in petty theft that will end civilisation and wipe out the human race.

Take sensational news stories like this with a pinch of salt.

Does the use of the word 'petty' make it less bad. This is shoplifting on a big scale. Fuelled by people who want cheap stuff.

It may not result in a scorched earth but a population with no community is dead anyway.

Communities will not be wiped out because thieves walk among us.

You’re swept up in the excitement of an impending apocalypse, a bit like those people that used to stand in town centres trying to convince the public that The End of the World is Nigh” and you’re the only one that realises.

Ah okay. Yes, you’re right. It’s morally wrong.

Good luck solving it with that line of argument though.

@ShipSpace it's not an argument. It's a fact.

The 'argument' is that we are all connected and until we under this we're fucked.

I agree, it’s a fact.

Good luck solving the problem with that fact.

Grr. Powerful argument undermined by predictive text

Understand. Until we understand

I understand the broader premis, OP. But we're living in difficult times - food, petrol, gas, electric....the basics in life are all increasi gly expensive. And then there's people's mortgages and rents increasing. You might be able to juggle your money, make ends meet, but plenty of people were at rock bottom before any of this happened. I can't get angry at people stealing food to feed their children or fly tipping to avoid paying a council removal charge they don't have, or stealing a £2 top from a charity shop because they're the only places left with no security tags.

Are you prepared to volunteer your time to remove large items for free? To look for funding for a van and associated costs, to put together a volunteer team? Donate to a food bank? Volunteer at a food bank? Arrange clothes swaps? Or just moan that others are messing things up for you? If you want things to improve, there is a bigger picture to consider.

The news is bad. It’s pretty awful out there. That’s a given

I’d advise getting out more. The overwhelming majority of the public you encounter are decent members of society.

I think your perspective of “out there” is skewed by sensational stuff you read online.

I suspect that a lot of this sort of thing really isn't that bad compared to most of history, it just feels bad to us after a few decades of societal prosperity.

And if the flytipping is on private land, it’s the landowners responsibility. So if someone tips a load if stuff into your garden, you have to pay for disposal

Well based on this www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4896725-shop-workers-infected-with-hiv-from-needles

I sure as hell wouldn't stop a shoplifter if I worked in retail. So what can shops do?

It’s the same with picking your nose in public. Antisocial behaviour rapidly spirals into lawlessness, insurrection and societal collapse. Look at the Roman Empire!

I am still failing to see what any of this has to do with climate change. Criminal underclasses have always existed and will be more prevalent were there are greatest level of poverty (or inequity).

Climate change is creeping and insidious and catastrophic.

Do you not understand what climate change is and what it means for all of us?

Hard to see how this is a serious question.

It's a parallel. We all know climate change is catastrophic but we didn't always know or understand.

It's my thesis that societal breakdown is similarly catastrophic.

And in reply to the poster who asked about volunteering I spend a huge percentage of my non working life volunteering in my community. However this isn't a discussion about what I do but about what can be done.

It depends what you view as wrong. Yes,I think shoplifting is wrong. But I also think having a massive wage differential between the lowest and highest paid in a company is wrong, and probably more wrong because the people making the decision to do that are already very privileged.