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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not be surprised to see threads on LGB being questioned now?!

318 replies

SuperNewMe · 15/09/2023 23:15

Just typed a reply and the thread disappeared quickly (makes a change as when it's trans related ones they stay?!)
So it's not a TAAT, it's just to say that after all the anti trans rhetoric you see on here sometimes, it comes as absolutely no surprise that there are now more threads attacking lesbian and gay couples ( not natural was the phrase used)
Not to mention one still on the go as far as I'm aware that refers to LGBTQ as "special rainbow people"
YABU you're imagining things
YANBU things seem to be ramping up against LGBT people in general
(I say this as someone who's straight and not trans)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
catgirl1976 · 16/09/2023 10:30

If they need help they are not scientists and should not be policy makers

There are two sexes. Male and female. It is, in 99.99 percent of cases very easy to tell which is which. Sex in humans is usually observed in utero and recorded at birth.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 16/09/2023 10:30

lifeturnsonadime · 16/09/2023 10:27

Is Tandora alluding to sex by deception here?

Wowsers.

I don't think so I think its more we can't actually tell the sex of a person without seeing their genitals

AliOlis · 16/09/2023 10:32

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 16/09/2023 10:30

I don't think so I think its more we can't actually tell the sex of a person without seeing their genitals

I don't think it's remotely difficult to correctly sex a person without having their genitalia waved in your face.

GeneralLevy · 16/09/2023 10:33

I thing it’s actually a wider shift on mumsnet towards conservative or right wing views. Or just wider intolerance. The threads on immigrants, refugees, benefits, disabled people etc show that more and more people are openly saying less tolerant things. It’s a lot of ‘piss off home if you don’t like it’ etc, or arguing that people on benefits could if they just tried more not be poor. Or arguing that Autistic children should be taught to behave. It’s not everyone, but there’s a significant amount of it, it’s on every thread. Some of it reaches racist, disablist commentary.
For example I totally get why black mumsnet was created as a safe space.
I don’t think the negative views about LGB people are linked just to the trans arguments at all, but are part of a general wider shift towards more intolerant viewpoints and the normalisation of comments that demean or insult certain groups.

lifeturnsonadime · 16/09/2023 10:33

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 16/09/2023 10:30

I don't think so I think its more we can't actually tell the sex of a person without seeing their genitals

Ah ok.

Well we can tell.

But if Tandora believes that we can't then I would still stay it would be polite to inform a lesbian that you are not the same sex BEFORE the date rather than putting her in a position of being exposed to genitals she is not attracted to.

Seems quite deceptive to hold such a relevant fact from her.

VickyEadieofThigh · 16/09/2023 10:33

Naunet · 16/09/2023 10:30

Ahh so you are basing your view on the idea that no one can tell women and men apart as long as they wear the other genders clothing?! Yeah, doesn’t work like that. Most of us can very easily tell the difference between a male and a female, irrelevant of how they dress. You’ll struggle to find many (especially women) who have been surprised by someone’s genitals.

Indeed. Every single person I've had any kind of sexual relationship with has had exactly the genitals I expected. 100% success rate in knowing what they would be in advance.

I know trans-identifying people often like to insist that we can't tell and that they "pass" but they're wrong.

catgirl1976 · 16/09/2023 10:34

I have chickens

I know they are hens and yet I have never seen their genitals.

it’s just as easy with humans

Remind me never to buy milk from Tandora should she ever open a dairy farm

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 16/09/2023 10:35

AliOlis · 16/09/2023 10:32

I don't think it's remotely difficult to correctly sex a person without having their genitalia waved in your face.

I agree with you I just don't think tandora believes we can

NeedToChangeName · 16/09/2023 10:35

SpidersAreShitheads · 16/09/2023 03:00

Just because you haven't encountered any difficulties when turning down trans women for dates doesn't mean it doesn't happen though, does it? It's extremely clear from the many, many experiences being recounted by lesbians all around the country that it's a real problem. And if you don't believe them, just look at social media - there's plenty of evidence of these beliefs if you want to go looking.

Also, I don't think anyone believes that trans women are new.

But what is new is trans women claiming to be "better than women" and "the real women", and pushing women's voices out of spaces that we've fought so hard to gain entry to.

What's new is trans women insisting that they are the most marginalised in society, and that therefore their rights trump all others.

What's new is gangs of trans women - and their allies - attacking women who are trying to hold private meetings.

What's new is trans women trying to force their way into rape counselling centres that have been set up specifically for biological women because the regular rape counselling centre told women to "reframe their trauma" and accept male-bodied counsellors.

What's new is lesbians being told that they're transphobic for refusing to date someone with a "lady dick".

What is new is women in places of employment being told to step aside because they don't understand the real struggles of being a woman (search for Ginny's (?) thread on here - it's eye-opening).

What's new is professors being hounded out of universities for daring to say that biological sex is real.

What's new is trans women being included on board rooms or in executive positions, and that being counted as female representation.

What's new is trans women insisting on gaining entry to single sex spaces, thus rendering them unusable by those who need a single sex space eg/sexual assault survivors, or women with certain religious beliefs.

What is new is trans women in prisons and hospitals who go on to assault and rape vulnerable women in those institutions.

What's new is trans individuals trying to wipe out the right to have a same sex preference - effectively a new kind of homophobia.

What is new is trans women who were only ever average when participating in male sport suddenly entering into women's sports and robbing women of their victories, and in some cases, robbing them of the right to participate.

Conversely, what isn't new is male-bodied individuals acting aggressively towards women, erasing women, and speaking over women.

I have lots of gay friends in real life. I don't actually know any trans people. I chat to some trans women on Twitter, and the ones I have discussions with are lovely. They're very clear that they're not biological women, they're trans women - and the two are not the same. I can treat those trans women with absolute respect because they are true allies of women and aren't trying to claim to be something they're not.

Trans women like India Willoughby are vile, nasty and aggressive - and underlines the absolute bollocks that women are having to deal with.

I don't understand why someone feels they have a trans identity, none of us do. I don't really care how someone dresses, or what name they call themselves. I do care about the rights of women. I do care about women's sport. I do care about women's dignity, privacy and safety. I agree there needs to be some kind of solution - but it shouldn't automatically mean that women have to step aside and act as some kind of shield against male violence.

On the subject of public bathrooms, why do trans women need protection from male bodied individuals - but women don't qualify for the same protection? There are genuine trans women, and there are those who are sexual predators - just look at the figures from HM Prison Service. How do we protect our women and girls from trans women who are predators? That was the whole point of having single sex spaces - safety from aggressive male-bodied individuals. And now we're being forced to share our spaces with any male-bodied individual who chooses to enter them. And yet, if we raise these valid issues respectfully, we're shot down as transphobic. Speaking about women's rights has somehow become transphobic.

Women are rightfully angry and fucked off. We've fought too long and too hard to just give up our voices all over again.

It's not about hating trans individuals. I honestly don't really care what someone else does or how they lead their life. But when their rights trample all over the rights of women, I do care.

What pisses me off is that trans individuals and women should be allies, but when there's a whole group of them trying to claim what isn't theirs and depriving us of our safety and our rights in the process, it's never going to happen.

I agree with all of this

Boomboom22 · 16/09/2023 10:38

Are you aware that women who pretended to be men to have sex with a strap on have been sent to prison for sex by deception?
But it's OK for tw to do it even though it is against the law?
Weird also how tw trumps transman as well as woman, almost as if male socialisation is clear.

Tandora · 16/09/2023 10:43

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 16/09/2023 10:30

I don't think so I think its more we can't actually tell the sex of a person without seeing their genitals

I was saying that a person’s sexuality can rarely be reduced to genitalia-
appearance preference, all sorts of factors determine sexual attraction that have nothing to do with genitalia. We can see this in the fact that we are often attracted to people even though we have no idea what their genitalia look like. By way of another example there might be two men with very similar appearing genitalia, it is perfectly possible to be very sexually attracted to one and repelled by the other.

Naunet · 16/09/2023 10:44

What pisses me off is that trans individuals and women should be allies, but when there's a whole group of them trying to claim what isn't theirs and depriving us of our safety and our rights in the process, it's never going to happen

I should be allies with males who try and redefine me, reduce me to a costume, appropriate my experiences and refuse to even listen to women who are concerned about their sports, privacy and spaces being taken away to appease said males? Why? How would that benefit me or any women in any way?

Naunet · 16/09/2023 10:45

Sorry I posted too soon, that wasn’t a question to you @SpidersAreShitheads, was meant to be agreeing with you!

catgirl1976 · 16/09/2023 10:46

Christ on a bike

I wonder if a flow chart would help you understand the difference between sexuality (e.g being attracted to men, women or both) and personal preferences (e.g. being attracted to tall men or curvy women, or people with dark hair)

lifeturnsonadime · 16/09/2023 10:52

It's really fucking offensive that Tandora is likening same sex attraction to other personal preferences and then claiming WE are the homophobic ones.

At least this is out there on AIBU for all to see.

This is denying the existence of same sex attraction as a valid sexual preference. It is by definition homophobia.

Tandora · 16/09/2023 10:56

catgirl1976 · 16/09/2023 10:46

Christ on a bike

I wonder if a flow chart would help you understand the difference between sexuality (e.g being attracted to men, women or both) and personal preferences (e.g. being attracted to tall men or curvy women, or people with dark hair)

Definitional semantics are really neither here nor there. The question is what shapes the real world dynamics of sexual attraction- this is complex, multi-faceted and includes a combination of biological, environmental, social and cultural factors.

Tandora · 16/09/2023 10:58

lifeturnsonadime · 16/09/2023 10:52

It's really fucking offensive that Tandora is likening same sex attraction to other personal preferences and then claiming WE are the homophobic ones.

At least this is out there on AIBU for all to see.

This is denying the existence of same sex attraction as a valid sexual preference. It is by definition homophobia.

sure, resort to angry swearing, that will def contribute to a constructive debate.

Naunet · 16/09/2023 11:00

Tandora · 16/09/2023 10:58

sure, resort to angry swearing, that will def contribute to a constructive debate.

People tend to get angry when they see homophobia. Maybe try talking about this without being homophobic and denying same sex attraction.

Tandora · 16/09/2023 11:02

I’m not denying same sex attraction at all, and I’m not homophobic.

If you want to read my posts that way thats all on you.

catgirl1976 · 16/09/2023 11:02

Yep. Needs a flow chart 🙄

Lolapusht · 16/09/2023 11:06

This reply has been deleted

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Naunet · 16/09/2023 11:11

Tandora · 16/09/2023 11:02

I’m not denying same sex attraction at all, and I’m not homophobic.

If you want to read my posts that way thats all on you.

You’re claiming that no one is same sex attracted because we can’t possibly tell who is female and who is male. What do you make of the fully bearded males who put themselves on lesbian dating apps? Do you think it’s reasonable of these males to claim to be lesbians, and for lesbians to have to accept them as such?

Tandora · 16/09/2023 11:13

This reply has been deleted

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male skin and moves like a man. How curious!! Could you elaborate more?

Yes absolutely, my entire point is neither gender nor sexuality cannot be reduced to genitalia. I couldn’t agree with you more that there is so much more that defines and man and a woman, (and shapes attraction) than genitals. This is what I have been trying to say.

No idea what a TIF or a TIM is 😂

Codlingmoths · 16/09/2023 11:16

Well ok, let’s say it’s complex. But is it? I’m straight. I’m attracted to men. Not all men obviously, call me fussy but not even many men. But only men. And that’s not complicated, and no one has any difficulty at all understanding that. If they say they can’t quite work out what I mean by I’m attracted to men, then they are full of shit, as they do know exactly what I mean.

Tandora · 16/09/2023 11:17

Naunet · 16/09/2023 11:11

You’re claiming that no one is same sex attracted because we can’t possibly tell who is female and who is male. What do you make of the fully bearded males who put themselves on lesbian dating apps? Do you think it’s reasonable of these males to claim to be lesbians, and for lesbians to have to accept them as such?

You’re claiming that no one is same sex attracted because we can’t possibly tell who is female and who is male

this is a gross caricature of what I said. What is said is everyday judgements about sex and gender, and our sexual attraction to others, cannot be reduced to the appearance of genitals. (This doesn’t mean we can’t make a very good guess about what type of genitals someone has based on their appearance)