Another dog attack, man killed, can this just go on?

[IthinkIamAnAlien]

Just on the news - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-66817795

Week after week, there is something wrong with dogs (and the owners) today, I grew up with them and this never, ever happened. Maybe because dogs were treated as dogs and not trophy animals. Awful for everyone.

Of course, some breeds are more inclined than others to display certain behaviours but all of these behaviours come from the same set of natural behaviours found in wild dogs and wolves and are present in all breeds to one degree or another. We have selectively bred certain breeds to strengthen certain natural behaviours to suit our own needs.

All dogs have the same eye-stalk-chase-bite-kill instinct. In collies, we have selectively bred to enhance the eye-stalk-chase instincts and decrease the bite-kill instinct. Greyhounds we have enhanced the eye-chase but we don't really want them to stalk. They're used for hare coursing so we've also enhanced the bite-kill behaviours. For bullbaiting we need the bite instinct to be strong so we enhanced that drive through selective breeding.

But none of that explains why bull breeds are responsible for more attacks. We've enhanced the bite-kill instinct in many breeds, including greyhounds, yet they are not going around attacking people in high numbers.

Something other than genetics is going on with bullbreeds and it can only be an environmental factor.

Regardless of what is or is not causing bullbreeds to act this way BSL is not going to stop it. That has been proven over the last 30 years. It's time to try something new now.

But none of that explains why bull breeds are responsible for more attacks. We've enhanced the bite-kill instinct in many breeds, including greyhounds, yet they are not going around attacking people in high numbers

Something other than genetics is going on with bull breeds and it can only be an environmental factor

I'd have thought it was glaringly obvious, pit bull breeds are extremely strong, weigh over 50kg and cannot be hauled from their victim nor fought off, XL Bullies can be 60kg.

The only way around this issue is to ban certain size of dogs based on weight/muscle mass.

Something other than genetics is going on with bullbreeds and it can only be an environmental factor.

Absolutely. XL bullies are big dogs and intelligent too - they need lots of exercise, very regular and consistent training and plenty of mental stimulation. I would be bet good money that most of those that have been involved in fatal (or near-fatal) attacks weren't getting anything close to what they need in that respect.

Dogs who are genetically "stable" and who get the input they need don't go round attacking people with no warning. However, dogs who are under-exercised, under-stimulated and stuck in small houses with small gardens all day long are going to be bored, frustrated and much more likely to go "rogue" as it were.

Let's be honest - it's never a nice, well-exercised and nicely trained spaniel that fatally bites someone on the head or neck.

I'd have thought it was glaringly obvious, pit bull breeds are extremely strong, weigh over 50kg and cannot be hauled from their victim nor fought off, XL Bullies can be 60kg.

But there are loads of giant breeds who are never involved in fatal attacks either - St Bernards, Great Danes, Newfoundlands, Irish Wolfhounds, Leonbergers - all big, giant breeds that are generally placid with lovely natures and that make great pets.

It's not the size - it's their genetics and how they're raised. It's never a nice, friendly spaniel, beagle or golden retriever that attacks out of the blue and mauls someone on the neck or head.

mmmmmm that's exactly the point i was making to the poster who said that "something else other than genetics is going on..."

the breeds you mention are not used for Dog Fighting are they?

That’s right, you’ve listed much friendlier dogs. XL bullies are the ones that maul and kill

Yes - and a lot of that is down to how they're raised.

It's never a properly raised dog of any breed that just attacks out of nowhere. The dogs that killed Ian Price, for example, leapt out of a window - how many decent dog owners would ever allow that to happen in the first place, no matter how friendly the dogs?

If you take a dog, keep it in a small house, don't give it enough exercise, never mentally stimulate it, don't make sure it's healthy or fit, then of course it's going to act out. The difference is, an XL bully can kill someone - a terrier or a chihuahua can't.

A dog that's bred for dog-fighting should never be human aggressive, though - that's a big part of how they're supposed to be bred - so that their handlers can remove them from a fight without risking a bite.

A dog-aggressive dog and a human aggressive dog are very different things. Some dogs, however, are both.

It's never a properly raised dog of anybreed that just attacks out of nowhere. The dogs that killed Ian Price, for example, leapt out of awindow- how many decent dog owners would ever allow that to happen in the first place, no matter how friendly the dogs?

Precisely. I have a strong, large-breed dog. I open my back windows and I'm not bothered if he jumps into the back garden as long as I am home and I know the back gate is locked so I just open those windows without much thought but when I open the front windows I make sure they catch on the lock and cannot open wide enough for the dog to get through.

The dog which attacked the 11yo girl slipped it's collar twice. My dog is walked on a harness and a collar with a doubled-ended leash attached to each. His harness has a control handle on the back. If his collar snaps he is still attached by his harness. If his harness snaps he is still attached to his collar. If I need to keep him under closer control or walk past something he might find distracting or exciting I can use the control handle.

He's not in any way aggressive but I am aware of how intimidating he can look so he doesn't get the chance to approach strangers or lunge on his leash towards them. He's friendly towards all dogs and patient with small snappy breeds even when they attack him. If he wasn't he'd be muzzled on walks to prevent him biting smaller dogs who approach him.

I find it very hard to believe that there is any Labrador in that hideous thing.

The video of Mr Price is the most horrific thing I have ever seen.

Fuck this 'breed' and all of the bull breed nightmares that are combined to make this abomination.

I only wish that more owners were mauled rather than innocent members of the public (dogs and people).

Having said that, it certainly happens more than people think, especially in the USA. Dogs that were lovingly raised as puppies suddenly attack and kill their owners.

But hey, it's ALL in the way that they're raised, right?

Arrogance is exactly the word.

There is a reason there is a certain type of person drawn to these dogs. Those who feel powerless in society. Feeling like they are in control of these dogs makes them feel powerful, special.

Something other than genetics is going on with bullbreeds and it can only be an environmental factor.

Many of the bull breeds (including Staffys and Pit Bulls) have long and complex breeding intentions in the lineage. They were, in many cases, bred to be a working class man's fighting dog that had to live within the family home day-to-day as well as engage in 'sporting' fights (the working class not being able to afford to maintain kennels). To this end they were selected to be companionable towards humans, and beyond - they typically crave human contact and suffer very badly psychologically when emotionally neglected.

The environmental trigger you're looking for is a change in societal family structure. Bull breeds should only be kept by owners that can be with them all or most of the day on all or most days of the week. If they're left on their own regularly for long periods, or pushed out into the garden/backyard to look after themselves, they will become frustrated and will start to exhibit widely varying behaviours in order to get back the emotional attention they need.

When you look at the media reports of bull breed attacks and the wider circumstances you can see broad patterns emerging:

• Status dogs trained to be or act aggressively. Surprisingly rare, I suspect most people buying status dogs aren't that well clued up on dog training. And typical security dog training is all about the appearance of aggression to the observer and making this a game for the dog.
• Emotionally neglected dogs that have been kept on their own outdoors in a backyard, or left alone in the home repeatedly whilst the owners are out, or emotionally displaced by changes in the family structure/routine. These are the most common and most tragic cases.

It's not just bull breeds that suffer from this type of neglect, but in general they are less emotionally independent than many other breeds. And when it comes to emotional displacement, e.g. the arrival of a new baby, then no dog of any breed should be entirely trusted.

@DogInATent

Yes my staffy was very emotionally needy. She died at 16 last year but she was my most anxious dog despite training other breeds the same. She simply couldn’t tolerate being away from us and she would scream like a monkey. They weren’t even dog sounds 🤦‍♀️. Well they were, obviously, but the distress was real.

We stopped letting her off the lead as one day a dog approached my young daughter in her buggy (not in an aggressive way but did get too close) and my staffy literally flipped. She pinned this dog down aggressively and warned it. I pulled her off and she was always walked on a lead from that day and away from other dogs entirely. There was something in her that day that made her too overly protective of my child.

Long story is, we seen it through. She was a beautiful and affectionate dog within the home and family but I would never get another one.

@Itslosenotloose the only things that would make me hesitate about getting another Staffy are the extent to which their emotional needs impinge on the ability to work full-time, and the problems that misguided breed specific legislation make when travelling. Having a listed/scheduled/annexed breed dog places a lot of restrictions on what you can do, although in practice I've found that most of these are theoretical.

They're a fantastic breed.

@DogInATent

They are fantastic and she’s very much missed. We are enjoying the freedom though now she’s not here. We didn’t ever holiday without her. I left her once for three nights whilst I got married and she ended up with stress induced gastritis (despite being looked after adequately). Bless her.

Seriously, I do wonder.... Wouldn't want to come across you.... You're not safe to be around human, let alone animals

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66900657

I’ve been reading over the last few days

licenced breeders that wouldn’t be a problem for the drug dealers that apparently own these dogs as they’ve the money and there are a fair few in my area but don’t breed the xl though.

also you’ve to have a breeders licence after 2 litters or make £1,000 this is now all over the UK has been in place for years now.

plus vet responsible owners when buying , you can have all the checks in place but some do slip through the net, So what do you do as it’s illegal to go get the dog as it’s a very grey law here if KC registered dogs not sure on the unregistered (non KC) dogs unless they’ve signed a contract and even then it’s a minefield

councils are in it to make money
KC are in it to make money
police don’t have the resources.

I see muzzles and insured are what they are doing just like the pit bulls then. This is all they could do as it can’t be policed.

I’d want proof it was in fact an xl bully as some papers have reported wrongly what breed it was before actually checking.

why to get the media frothing again

Another attack Friday 22nd September www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/man-attacked-dog-xl-bully-walworth-park-b1109001.html

I didn't see that recent post but in spite of breed identification it still points rot the need for legislation based on type, muscular breed over a certain body weight etc

Legislation on type mmmm that worked well in the past didn’t it NOT!!!

@Dullardmullard well yes...it lessened the amount of pit bulls but resulted in XL. By type I mean all encompassing based on characteristics...not breed

Thought it interesting that at the XL Bully protest this weekend, hardly anyone brought their dog. Wonder why?

@ChristopherTalken probably because there's a lot of hanging around in one place at a protest. Most dogs get bored, restless and fractious hanging around in one place, especially on leads. A protest is hardly going to want fractious dogs barking are they? If it was a walking protest the dogs wouldn't get so bored.
It happens at dog shows a lot with all the waiting around, dogs can get bored and a bit snappy.