To think my son and his partner were very rude here?

[JaneY1970]

I'll start by giving you the background details.
I have 2 sons, the oldest is 26 and the youngest 24.
My oldest son has been in a long distance relationship with a woman from Norway for the past 3 years and will be moving there to live with her at the end of the month. He has aspergers and has been adamant his entire life that he doesn't want children, he had the snip 5 years ago (which he proudly told me about). His partner also feels the same way (and is also 8 years older than him so time would be ticking for her if she did want children) that's how they connected when they met online. I am sad about this but I have to accept it because I love my son. My other son and his partner have my 4 year old grandson who has severe autism and is nonverbal. I invited both of my sons and their partners over for dinner just to spend some time with them before my oldest moves abroad, his partner is also visiting and joined us. A few hours go by and we're just having a nice chat when my grandson starts having a meltdown and screaming. My oldest turned to his partner and loudly said "I'm so glad we'll never have to deal with this shit" and his partner laughed and said "I'd probably shoot myself if I had to deal with that" and they both thought that was hilarious. My other son heard that and stormed off in tears. My oldest son and his partner left shortly after and I've spent the past hour consoling my son with his partner. They really struggle with my grandson and his needs and that comment tipped my son over the edge. I'm disappointed in my other son and his partner but I don't want to sour our relationship just before he moves away. I don't know what to do.

They're right though? They never have to deal with a screaming child. Your other son took that very personally as his child was mid meltdown and its stressful. All easily solved with a quick apology

I'm more shocked that he had a vasectomy at 21. What doctor would perform that?

I fully agree with you!

I'm autistic and was often berated as a child/teen for "lacking emotion". However that was not at all the case. I simply failed to express emotion through my facial expressions or body language. I don't "react" to situations in the same way others do.

However - it did not mean I lacked emotion. I felt the appropriate emotion acutely - I just didn't outwardly demonstrate that I did!

I agree. You don't have to do it in a way that spurns your elder son and partner, but you do have to say your piece.
He did this in front of you.
It caused so much hurt and distress, you can't let him think he can treat his brother like that and say nothing because he's leaving the country.
He's still your son and you love him but his behaviour and the harm it caused needs to be brought into the open and he needs to be made aware that it is unacceptable.
Even if it works out that he didn't realise or he was trying to joke but it came out wrong - it's still not acceptable and as his mother you would be doing him a favour
And I would let your younger son know that you did this, that you understand the hurt and have his back, whether he talks to his brother about it or not ( and I think he also should)
His remarks and the way they were delivered, won't be easily forgotten. Why should both you and DS2 suffer in silence and give older brother and partner a free pass by ignoring it?
You can also say to younger son that you have tried to do this, not to push older brother away but to make him aware. What older B does with this is up to him.

This is really interesting and I think probably applies to some other cultural positions now.

relatedly, my son who has adhd and likely asd says that the more he is on discord, the more likely he is to hurt someone’s feelings in real life.

He would have had the vasectomy before dating the Norwegian girlfriend, so if she wanted to be him, she didn’t really have any choice about having children.

ah the old “lacking empathy” chestnut. That is an outdated view. People with autism are people; some are very empathetic and some are not, most people are in the middle. My personal experience of people with autism is that most people are empathetic but they express it differently to NT people. It’s not really very surprising giving ASD is a social communication disorder.

It's said in jest to friends with a tantrumming toddler. Lighten up for fuck sake.

I think it happens on here a lot. You could often be forgiven, when reading MN, for thinking an entirely different set of social norms exist in day to day life than the ones that actually do.

A good one that respects the ability of autonomous adults to make their own decisions?

If people can decide to have children at 21 they can decide to be sterilised.

He has aspergers and has been adamant his entire life that he doesn't want children, he had the snip 5 years ago (which he proudly told me about). His partner also feels the same way (and is also 8 years older than him so time would be ticking for her if she did want children) that's how they connected when they met online. I am sad about this but I have to accept it because I love my son

You say you accept it but the way you talk about their decision makes it fairly clear you don't approve. I would bet a decent amount of money that they've been on the receiving end of either snide comments, "so disappointed but we still love you" comments or both from you and perhaps the rest of the family, if they also place so much stock in the "normal" life path.

What they said was insensitive but it's pretty much what I think when in the presence of any tantrumming child (autistic or not). I don't say it out loud but then I don't have Aspergers. Often the parent in question will say it first - "you must be so thankful you'll never have to deal with this!" - and we both laugh. I appreciate your younger son has a lot to deal with but it's a pretty massive overreaction to burst into tears.

The gathering was to say goodbye to your elder son and his partner before he emigrates? And now it's become all about your younger son and his child? That's a common dynamic that child-free people are used to, too.

Except that's not how the medical profession works. If a healthy 21 year old woman walked into a doctor's surgery and asked for a hysterectomy because she doesn't want children, no surgeon in the U.K would perform it (NHS or private) because it is unethical! it's nothing to do with being an autonomous adult. The same applies to men and having vasectomies. They do not operate on healthy organs just because the individual wants it. The medical profession work on the ethical principle, 'first do no harm'. What if 20yrs later, the man/woman does a complete round about and decides having children would be a great idea? the doctor/surgeon could be sued. This is why it is so difficult to get a hysterectomy on the NHS for gynea problems. all other treatment options have to be exhausted first. Only if they feel the woman's life will be in danger by now having the surgery will they then perform it.

YABU.

He has Asperger's so was just saying his thought out loud. It wasn't intended to be rude; it was factual.

His brother should have realised that he didn't mean any harm by it, but I imagine he's having a tough time dealing with an autistic child.

You can be sterilised at 21, male or female, it’s perfectly legal albeit difficult to access (unless you go privately, at least). That doesn’t have to mean a hysterectomy. I can vouch for that myself, being childfree and sterilised. So yes, that is how the medical profession works.

What is someone regrets it in future?Then that person will have to live with the consequences of their decision. That’s life. People regret having children too, yet that doesn’t mean someone else can decide to prevent them from making their own decisions in the name of saving them from themselves.

Seriously rude!

@notlucreziaborgia Didn't say it's illegal, I said unethical and the younger you are the more cautious clinicians are precisely because the younger the person is the more chance of changing their minds later. As you have said, it is difficult to access, ask yourself why that is?

Unethical is clearly in the eye of the beholder. We don’t prevent teenagers from choosing to continue pregnancies on the basis that they’ll regret it later. Nor do we deny access to cosmetic procedures.

Why can it be difficult to access? Oftentimes because of the personal beliefs of doctors. Also, cost. All medical procedures seem to be difficult for NHS patients to access currently. Thankfully, others doctors (including mine, and the doctor the OP’s son saw) will trust adults to decide for themselves.

I'm sterile and was sterilised at 25, I'm female. I asked them at 18 and was outraged that they wouldn't do it. It took years of pestering them but I won in the end, despite many male doctors asking me to think of my future husband. No regrets. Best decision I've ever made.

I can actually see their point. I deliberately avoid any and all family events with any children at all attending because they push all my buttons and I'm not longer able to filter what I say. The noise is too much, I find them germy and out of control. I'm also autistic. I often say to my partner that I'd kill myself if that was my life when I see people dealing with even fairly typical children who are being difficult. It just looks awful, thankless, expensive and a massive time and energy sink. I can't understand it at all.

Well you could be a biological women identifying as a man and have your breasts cut off at 21 as well then. More ethical to wait until the brain is fully formed before making irreversible decisions though !

Yes, I could have done. That would also have been my choice, and any consequences mine to deal with.

It’s ethical to respect the reproductive choices of adults.

You do know there's plenty of ways to stop yourself getting pregnant. No one is being forced to have a baby just it's unlikely a person will be sterilised in their early 20s

It has nothing to do with not respecting your reproductive choices

Well you could be a biological women identifying as a man and have your breasts cut off at 21 as well then. More ethical to wait until the brain is fully formed before making irreversible decisions though ! ffs must every thread end up with someone finding a way to make it about trans issues? Don’t you people ever think about anything else?

How often do we hear on here that no contraception is 100% effective.

How often do we hear on here that if a woman gets pregnant and the man says he didn’t want a baby, people saying if he didn’t want children he should have had a vasectomy?

So if a woman is absolutely certain she doesn’t want children and is refused a sterilisation op she should either have a baby she doesn’t want because she doesn’t want an abortion or should be made to go through having an abortion which she might find traumatic?

If a man is absolutely certain he doesn’t want children should he be made to pay maintenance for a child he never wanted, because he was refused the ability not to have one?

I think that there does need to be some thought paid towards having a sterilisation at such a young age, and I think that if it is agreed you shouldn’t be entitled to a reversal or IVF on the NHS and that should be made clear. So therefore anyone being sterilised young should be left in no doubt that they will never have children ever.

But I don’t think that criticism of people who make those choices is necessary.

Tbh I don't really give a shit about trans issues but making people infertile at 21 because they don't want kids and making them infertile because they think they are a bloke not a women is pretty similar