To be confused about my partner's nationality

[ForestryForever]

Good evening,
My partner's parents were both born in Wales. They both lived and grew up in Wales. As adults they both left Wales and lived in England, where they remained.
Whilst married and living in England, they had a baby - my partner. My partner was born, raised in and grew up in England, and still lives in England.
What nationality is my partner?

He’s English. In the same way I’m South African.

I don’t really consider myself to be South African because both of my parents are English. But I was born and raised in South Africa, so that doesn’t make me English.

For what it’s worth, South Africans don’t consider me to be South African. English people certainly don’t consider me to be English.

I see myself as being more English than South African but that doesn’t make it so!

Legally I’m a citizen of both countries.

IMO, your husband is Welsh in the same way that many Americans are Irish. He wears his heritage with pride!

<he’s definitely NOT half Welsh!>

In the absence of there being any particular test to determine whether or not someone qualified as Welsh….

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/09/29/what-makes-person-welsh-according-welsh-people

According to this, around 80% of Welsh people consider that you have a valid claim to being Welsh if you have two Welsh parents.

Say shwmae to your husband for me, OP.

English.

Well both English and Welsh are not nationalities. His nationality is British. Both English and Welsh are ethnic groups, so that's why you have so many people saying British to your question

My friend has Pakistani parents, he was born in England but can speak much Urdu and has been brought up in the culture of his parents.
is he English or can he be both?
would you laugh or try to deny his identity when he says he’s British Pakistani?
the Idea you have to throw away everything from your ancestors to be English or British is abhorrent to me.

My mum was born and raised in England but her parents and all their ancestors are/were Asian. Her nationality is still English but her ethnicity is different.

Your husband's nationality is English but ethnically he is Welsh. He isn't half English half Welsh because both of his parents are Welsh.

Your dismissive "banning the language a long time ago" is also simplistic to say the least. Among other things, his ancestors would have been beaten for speaking it, you think the effect of that has just dissipated into thin air, just because the government of Wales (established 1999) is now saying nice things about the language? It will take a long time to correct such a deep injustice.

I know there were horrific atrocities committed in the past wrt banning/subverting people's natural ethnic language; but I still don't see how people can cling to this nowadays, as their reason why they are proudly Welsh but don't speak any Welsh, when it is so easy to learn Welsh if you truly want to - there are no modern-day English people stopping you from doing so.

I'm English, but I went to university in Wales, nearly 30 years ago, and I learnt some Welsh in the freely-available classes. These days, of course, there is a host of online resources for learning Welsh, so you don't even need to be located anywhere in or near Wales.

I didn't keep it up when I left Wales and returned to England, because I had other priorities. I still remember most of what I learned and consider it an asset to my learning; I'm very glad I did it.

You have to be honest and acknowledge that, if any Welsh person nowadays doesn't speak any Welsh and has never made any effort to learn it, it's simply because they don't want to and it just isn't important to them. Entirely their choice, of course, although I personally find it a bit sad. Just like Facebook and TikTok are not important to me; but if they were and I still didn't use them or know how to, the only person that would be down to is me; they're freely available to me, wherever I am, and there would be nothing and nobody stopping me from becoming a proficient, prolific user if I only cared enough to do so.

Also, do Welsh people today really still cling to the historical fact of having been colonialised by the English? Historical perspectives differ as to whether it was an actual act of colonialist takeover or a willing partnership; but even if we fully assume the former, what is the point in holding on to it centuries later? How does it actually help you in your daily life and happiness to continue to identify as victims, having once been subdued by a colonial enemy? I'm English, but from 'peasant' heritage, so my distant ancestors were probably subdued by the rich and powerful too; I don't blame their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandchildren for their actions now - whatever would be the point of that?

How come there hasn't even been a serious unified request for a referendum on Wales leaving the UK in modern times? It can't be that bad being associated with the English, then, if there's no real appetite to leave - as could the Scottish freely have done nearly a decade ago, if the majority had wanted it.

By all means be proud of your identity associated with your own home nation, but do you really, truly see the Welsh as such a completely hugely different culture from the English? Really?

He's english

I'm English, but I went to university in Wales, nearly 30 years ago, and I learnt some Welsh in the freely-available classes. These days, of course, there is a host of online resources for learning Welsh, so you don't even need to be located anywhere in or near Wales.

I didn't keep it up when I left Wales and returned to England, because I had other priorities. I still remember most of what I learned and consider it an asset to my learning; I'm very glad I did it.

You have to be honest and acknowledge that, if any Welsh person nowadays doesn't speak any Welsh and has never made any effort to learn it, it's simply because they don't want to and it just isn't important to them.
I’m Welsh. Grew up in an entirely English-speaking household despite my mother being bilingual. I’ve tried learning as an adult but languages never came naturally and I find it really difficult. I’m on a 2 year+ Duolingo streak (and not just doing the bare minimum either, between 30 mins and an hour most days, sometimes much longer), have read a couple of novels directed at learners and have tried podcasts.

Truthfully, my Welsh is still awful. I keep trying to read the news in Welsh (with limited success) and can’t even follow an episode of Peppa Pig. I can manage only some basic conversations, and even then I make lots of errors.

This is particularly upsetting because my grandmother, post-stroke, can now only communicate in Welsh (which was her first language).

I think you’re massively downplaying how easy it is to regain a language that was almost stamped out.

I think you’re massively downplaying how easy it is to regain a language that was almost stamped out.

Not at all - learning any language always takes a lot of effort, time and willpower; but it's completely possible, if it's important enough to you to put in the time and effort.

In spite of what the wicked people of the past did in trying to eradicate Welsh, the wonderful news is that they failed. It's not like Cornish, which tragically is now effectively dead - Welsh is now a widely spoken living language, mother tongue to hundreds of thousands of people, and just waiting, full of books and online resources, for any willing learners to embrace it and become fluent, just like any other language that anybody truly wants to learn. Not easy, not quick and not a walk in the park; but if you really want to learn it now, there's nobody standing in your way except (potentially) yourself.

Why is this even important??

British.

I was born and reared in Manchester to Irish parents. I moved to Ireland as a teen and to the US in my 20s.

I have 3 passports.

If anyone asks, I’m Irish. I consider Ireland to be home.

Just to add/clarify, I know that a lot of people do find learning new languages difficult, and some may just find it personally impossible, however hard they try - just like some people find that they can never learn to pass a driving test, no matter how many lessons they take - but my point is that Welsh is now on the same level as, say, Spanish, French or German for a would-be language-learner.

The fact that people tried to stamp it out completely in the past is irrelevant now: if you are able to learn a language, want to learn a language and are willing to put in the time and effort to learn it, Welsh is just as available to you as is Spanish.

It's not the best analogy, but if I'd lived 100 years ago, I could have easily bought a loaf of bread, but absolutely not a mobile phone. It doesn't matter how much I may have wanted one (even if I'd had the idea and known the theory of what one would be!), it was a firm 100% not available to me whatsoever. However, now, in the time that I am currently living, a mobile phone is every bit as easy for me to obtain as is a loaf of bread, as long as I have the right amount of money (or ability and willingness to save up for it).

Why is this even important??

It is to some people and not at all to others - same as with almost anything.

Just like you get some people obsessing about what (non-obvious) pronouns they want people to use for them when they are not present - and get terribly upset if they don't.

Whereas many/most of us are happy for people to use the obvious ones for us, and often aren't even particularly worried if people who don't know us and haven't met us happen to make a wrong guess and mistakenly refer to us as a 'he' if we're actually (obviously on sight) a 'she' or vice versa.

Just to add/clarify, I know that a lot of people do find learning new languages difficult, and some may just find it personally impossible, however hard they try - just like some people find that they can never learn to pass a driving test, no matter how many lessons they take - but my point is that Welsh is now on the same level as, say, Spanish, French or German for a would-be language-learner.
It really, really isn’t. Of the major technology-based language learning providers, Duolingo is the only one that has a Welsh course. Babbel and Rosetta Stone do not.

And even the Duolingo Welsh course lacks a lot of the functionality that the Spanish/French/German courses have (for example, there are no speaking exercises on the Welsh course).

There are also far fewer choices when it comes to literature and, outside of Wales at least, courses are extremely hard to come by.

If someone was born in France, their mum was from Algeria and their father was from Brazil, what would they be considered?

Wouldn't the OP be a bit the same?

I was born and raised in Canada. One of my parents was born in Canada, the other in England. All my grandparents were British (Scottish and English), all great grandparents were European. I now live in England. Essentially I am Canadian with dual British citizenship. It does get a bit messy though.

I'd say your partner is English with Welsh heritage.

I’d say he was English with Welsh heritage.

I mean, there are several valid possibilities of his nationality and you picked one that's just completely wrong. In no way is he "half Welsh". He's either fully Welsh (genetically, culturally), fully English (based on the place he grew up) or fully both.

I do hope all the people claiming he's obviously English because he was born here and has the accent would say the same if his parents were Pakistani or Nigerian. But in my experience, they probably wouldn't.

Duolingo is the only one that has a Welsh course. Babbel and Rosetta Stone do not.

And even the Duolingo Welsh course lacks a lot of the functionality that the Spanish/French/German courses have (for example, there are no speaking exercises on the Welsh course).

So how many non-Welsh-speaking Welsh people, who say that they wish they could learn Welsh, have never actually done (or looked at) the Duolingo Welsh course, before bemoaning the fact that it doesn't have anything like as much functionality as other courses teaching major world languages?

And as Welsh is obviously very much a minority language in comparison, how will things ever improve if many/most people who claim to want to learn it don't even bother taking advantage of the (basic) resources that are available?

Search for 'learn Welsh online' and there are quite a number of resources. Obviously nowhere near as many or as comprehensive as if you searched for 'learn Spanish'; but to listen to a lot of people - including some on this thread - you'd think there were no possibilities whatsoever.

Might it be that the resources would be greater in number and more comprehensive if far more of those who say they would like to learn Welsh had actually made the effort to put their money/time where their mouth is and provide a genuine market for them? Is it like when nobody ever uses the village shop, because Tesco five miles away has way more choice; and then those same people all complain bitterly when the village shop ends up closing down completely - when it could instead have expanded and become much better if only people had actively shown that they wanted it?

What country was he born in?
What country are his parents from?
What country is his passport from?

The answer to all of them is UK.

I'm in the English Midlands, and I still also have access to S4C - free of charge and at the touch of a button. As does everybody now in the UK.

That would be a fantastic start for those who want to immerse themselves in Welsh - even for just 15 minutes a day. I wonder how many would-be Welsh-learners in the UK actually do take the trouble to press their fingers down half an inch, two or three times, and access it?

Biologically he is Welsh.
Born in England, living in England but he is Welsh.
Just like a person who has only Indian heritage is biologically Indian but living in America or where ever.
Just like a Hereford cow is Hereford no matter where ever it lives or eats grass.
Just like a Siamese cat is a Siamese cat whether it lives in Spain or Australia.

People can identify as belonging to a country and possess that passport but still have the same DNA as their ancestors and be that.

user1492757084

What you say is completely true; but when it comes to the UK home nations and how naturally the British tend to travel within the country and mingle, I think most of us must naturally have quite a variable mixture going back only a few generations - which probably makes us all much of a muchness in reality.

Nothing like a Hereford cow, who would be very selectively and exclusively bred through the generations.