To be confused about my partner's nationality

[ForestryForever]

Good evening,
My partner's parents were both born in Wales. They both lived and grew up in Wales. As adults they both left Wales and lived in England, where they remained.
Whilst married and living in England, they had a baby - my partner. My partner was born, raised in and grew up in England, and still lives in England.
What nationality is my partner?

I have a question.

What makes someone ethnically Welsh?

Ethnicity , identity , culture and nationality are all different things so it is hard to say. For instance in my case all four of those things are the same, but many people will have a mixture. If his parents are Welsh by ethnicity as well as by birth, and he has grown up with a strong sense from them and his wider family, of Welsh culture and identity, then I would say he is definitely Welsh rather than English, even though he will have an understanding of English culture too.

The thing is, people tell me endlessly that I'm wrong to say I'm not English, although it's 100% technically true. They'll say "oh buy you are English really".
I was not born in England, I did not grow up in England and I do not have a British passport. But I speak with an English accent, and I know every cultural reference since 1996. So they basically say that my claim to non-Englishness is a technicality, despite being the factual reality. It's hardly surprising that saying you're 100% Welsh when you've never lived there is a little odd. I think after a while, you assimilate, and you are where you live, not whatever history flows in your veins.

You do a lot of SHOUTING, and you seem to think that asserting things over and over is an argument.

But to address a small part of it - on the one hand you say a nation is a country. On the other you say Scotland and Wales are countries. Yet you claim they are not nations. Do you see the problem?

You're also really confusing legal definitions and states with, well, everything else!

Dont worry, you're not capable of genuine condescension.

That was a lot of words to say that you were wrong.

As I said ethnicity is not objective. I still don't think you entirely have a good grasp of it but it's a start and if you do more reading about how culture and history you will be well on your way.

Keep up the good work!

@Switcher

I think after a while, you assimilate, and you are where you live, not whatever history flows in your veins.

Not for everyone. I know plenty of English people who live in Ireland and have done for decades, some with at least one Irish parent, their kids identify as Irish....but they still identify as English.
I know others who identify as both....and a couple who say they are Irish,

@Pollyputhekettleon the UK is actually a nation, State AND sovereign country. This is recognised by the international community around the world.

For example, the Governments of Germany and the Netherlands.

England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are nations and non-sovereign countries. But they are NOT States themselves.

You're talking to someone who has had to understand these issues due to close to four decades of terrorism with people prepared to kill over it. That's why I understand the crucial nuances and distinctions as well as providing various bits of evidence.

If they say they are.

@Wherly I wonder are you upset because you said ethnicity could have visible characteristics? Did you then panic that such a statement might be straying into the racism you're dying to accuse me of?

If your grandad was from France and your nan was from Sri Lanka and they're raised with those influences on their life, then no one is going to tell them they can't identify as half French/half Sri Lankan. Even if their passport says British. Where is this RULE and which countries so you think it applies to?

My friend has one child born in India and one England, their passports I assume will differ but they'll have largely the same childhood and presumably they'll identify similarly

Also, there are some people who behave like being English, or British, is bad and it’s offensive to suggest they are. Some people will claim this is because they’re offended they haven’t been identified as they’re actual/chosen nationality, however if you accidentally called them something else, for example Ukrainian or Portuguese, they wouldn’t get as offended as if you labelled them as English. There is a lot of anti-English feeling around. And I get that it’s to do with the history, but there’s a lot of horrendous history and awful things done. I have German friends and I would NEVER treat them any differently due to what happened during the world wars. I would never be angry with an Italian for the Romans and how they destroyed a lot of ‘our’ religion, ‘our‘ wildlife, ‘our’ traditions. Yet people think it’s fine to abuse English people because of historical colonialism and stand by that. It’s ridiculous.

The problem is a lot of people hate the English. And I say this as someone who lives in and has the heritage and DNA of one of these ‘nations’ (because Cornwall is a nation according to Cornish nationalists, but I’ll let certain people on here do what they will with that).

Oh for goodness sake, you agree Wales is a nation then. That was the entire point you know.

@Pollyputhekettleon no, I state VERY clearly that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are non-sovereign countries.

That's not the same thing as country which is shorthand for a sovereign country.

A nation can be sovereign AND non-sovereign. Indeed, a nation can be one without a defined territory - the Sovereign Military Order of Malta is one such example.

I'm afraid you don't really understand these varying issues.

@Panaa For sure, yes. When I didn't live in the UK, I was keener to emphasize the British parts of me than I do now. He's perfectly entitled to view himself as whatever he likes, but it's rather unreasonable to try and enforce how everybody else must view him. I long since made peace with my hybrid background, he might be a little happier if he did too. It's obviously harder with the history of the nations that make up the UK, leads to much greater depth of feeling clearly!

He is English, his Heritage Is probably Welsh (if his ancestors are from there).

Same with me, I'm English (born and raised as where my parents and grandparents), my heritage is Irish (great-grandparents and everything before that).

My ex was English (born and raised) but his heritage was half Welsh and half Australian.

I know some people 'don't like it' but honestly this is exactly why the catch all term of 'British' exists and matters. I am British because I can't really say I'm 'Irish' when I personally have never even been there but it feel 'whitewashing' of my history to only say 'English' (the culture that stole our land, genocided my ancestors and drove many of us out of Ireland in the first place).

Er, no. What about the first generation after the English moved there? Also, can they call themselves Australian at all given that Australia, like Hawaii, has an indigenous population.

Or is it only OK if the incomers have "founded a state" (whatever that means, presumably the same as colonisation, no?).

What on Earth are you talking about?

I don't think you are racist. How you inferred that I do is beyond me.

Some ethnicities can have visible markers. Hence why I, with Irish parents, have never faced racism but my sister in law with a Jamacian father has.

And if you are going to argue the toss about race vs ethnicity I suggest you read your own post about the British census that implied you see it as some sort of authority.

You said, and I quote:

'England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are nations.'

Wales is a nation. That's the point. It's not merely a region, which is what the claim being made was.

I'm well aware of the distinction between nations, states, and countries. I've been boring people with it throughout this thread.

His loved ones and the ones closest to him should respect the way he views his identity, It's not unreasonable to expect that. He will never be able to enforce it with everyone else but he should with his loved ones, it shouldn't even be an issue that it's not respected.

@Pollyputhekettleon for goodness sake, you blatantly don't understand how these terms are defined in practice.

A nation is not necessarily a country, i.e. sovereign country. Nation DOES mean country.

Countries ARE sovereign or non-sovereign.

Therefore, Wales is a NON-SOVEREIGN country, but Welsh is not nationality since it is not an independent, sovereign country.

There are NO Welsh passports. Welsh people have a BRITISH passport* *which means their nationality is....British.

Welsh, is by definition, a regional identity of a part of the United Kingdom.

All very clear.

I'm well aware of the distinction between nations, states, and countries. I've been boring people with it throughout this thread

If by "boring people" you mean "getting confused and contradicting myself" then yes, you are correct.

You have never faced racism for being Irish?

I have... from my pale 'sickly' irish skin to my red hair to our names I have faced a TONNE of racist ignorance. That not including the 'jokes' about how our ancestors where starved to death and tortured.

My last point, if he wants to be Welsh then let him!

Thing is the United Kingdom was formed before the Irish genocide yet you are saying English? Can you see why that contributes to only the English getting the hatred a bit unfairly and the other nations get away with it?

No to what? Hawaii isn't Australia. It's simply a poor comparison for all kinds of reasons. Do you understand at all how offensive it would be to native Hawaiians for the hypothetical example to claim they were Hawaiian, simply because US law made them US citizens?