To be confused about my partner's nationality

[ForestryForever]

Good evening,
My partner's parents were both born in Wales. They both lived and grew up in Wales. As adults they both left Wales and lived in England, where they remained.
Whilst married and living in England, they had a baby - my partner. My partner was born, raised in and grew up in England, and still lives in England.
What nationality is my partner?

My grandmother was born in Wales to a Welsh family, but moved to England sometime prior to the age of 8 I believe. Maybe around 6?

She identifies herself as English and she doesn't even have a Welsh accent. She did call one of her sons a Welsh name though and would tell you she has Welsh heritage.

He definitely isn't "half Welsh" you don't claim half heritage of somewhere because you live there, if you're looking at halves you look at each parent. Both of his are Welsh, ie both halves of him are Welsh.
The English take massive offence if someone they have decided is British or English tells them they aren't.

No, it is a tortuous and tiresome game and I'm not playing it. I don't know how many times I can say that some people are using nationality as a synonym for citizenship (which by the way is highly problematic in the case of Wales for obvious reason...), while others are using it as a synonym for ethnicity. Both are valid usages in different contexts. You can't even be bothered to define your terms, no wonder you find my response hysterical.

To get back to the actual context here, OP's husband is having his ethnicity denied by her, because her conception of nationality is deeply confused, exactly as yours is. I do take that seriously, and I have no intention of apologizing for it.

I guess there's more than one way to be something.

For example, you can be Welsh ethnically. You can also be Welsh purely by nationality. I would say it's different. You wouldn't tell someone who was born and raised in Wales and spoke the language etc that they couldn't call themselves Welsh because "they ethnically aren't Welsh"... or would we? If the person that were said to were a 2nd generation immigrant from India, who identified as a Welsh Indian, would they be wrong? I mean they are Indian and they are Welsh. One ethnically perhaps and one nationally but also somewhat culturally too?

I knew someone who was born in England, but had Irish grandparents (moved out of Ireland with his young parents to England)... but who also spent a huge part of his childhood and adolescence growing up in Nigeria. He identifies somewhat with all 3 of these identities.

"didn't bother to link your source"
"I'm not silly enough to click hyperlinks in some randomer's post"

What do you want then?

No, it is a tortuous and tiresome game and I'm not playing it. I don't know how many times I can say that some people are using nationality as a synonym for citizenship (which by the way is highly problematic in the case of Wales for obvious reason...), while others are using it as a synonym for ethnicity. Both are valid usages in different contexts. You can't even be bothered to define your terms, no wonder you find my response hysterical.

If you were less hysterical you might have noticed that my post you're so bothered about was ASKING questions about the differences and similarities between nationality and ethnicity, and pointing out that they are not a simple matter.

You're not playing the tiresome game, you're inventing one and then railing against your imaginary game, while not having understood the post you are ranting about.
It's late. Go to bed. You're clearly too tired to think at all!

I was born in England to Scottish parents and moved back to Scotland when I was a few months old. I would consider myself Scottish. Although if anyone asked me I would say British

If independence was ever to happen then I would have dual citizenship due to parents and place of birth

So for that I would consider the OPs DP to be Welsh. Definitely not half Welsh

That depends on what you mean by being Welsh by nationality. Do you mean a citizen of Wales? Wales is not a state so you can't be a citizen of it.

There are people born and raised anywhere who would describe themselves as, say, Welsh by culture, or culturally Chinese, or a cultural mixture, or whatever, yet would be quite clear that their ethnicity, their heritage, their ancestry, is Somali, or Romanian, or mixed, or whatever. And everyone is absolutely fine with that. Your heritage, which I use as a synonym for your ethnicity here, matters (not least for health purposes), it's part of who you are and it can't be changed. Yes people can be Welsh in different ways.

For the less hysterical amongst us, the question of the interplay between ethnicity and nationality and particularly race is an interesting one.

Most people would have no qualm about a person born in Britain with Indian parents calling themselves British (even though now they may not be able to have British nationality)....BUT would not agree that someone born in India to British parents would be Indian.
It's literally the same thing, but one we find much easier to accept than the other.
Interesting, is all I'm saying.

If he was born in England, went to school in England and his cultural reference points are English then I’d say he was English with Welsh heritage.

If he was more immersed in welsh culture - so had language basics, watched shitty tv on S4C like the rest of us and got dragged to eisteddfod every year then maybe we can let him be one of us 😉

But really, if he wants to be Welsh then let him be Welsh. He’s definitely not half anything though.

Interesting question!

I would've said English but some of the points raised are fascinating.

I'm was born and raised in the south of England to Scottish and northern English parents (who met at uni in Scotland then moved to southern England after graduation).

I'd find it quite presumptuous to define myself as Scottish or from that northern English city since I didn't grow up there. I've visited both areas at least once a year as a child and fairly frequently as an adult. I'm very familiar with the regions and geography. Even if both my parents were Scottish I'd find it hard to define myself as such, I'd feel like an imposter!

I had a friend who went to a Scottish uni for his postgraduate degree and instantly adopted a Scottish identity. It made me cringe myself inside out and my Scottish relatives (fairly straight talking) would've raised their eyebrows 😁 My dad was always the Englishman amongst the Scottish family and would've never worn a kilt at weddings etc (mum would've been appalled - against tradition!) even though dad would've carried it with panache lol. He was never excluded, he was simply the Englishman amongst Scots! Incidentally my friend did his undergrad in a different country and semi-identified as being of that heritage until he changed to Scottish 🤷‍♀️

Edit: That friend remained in Scotland and went on to have children there who I'd define as Scottish. Both the kids' parents are English (though I'm certain they pretend to be Scottish!). The kids were born there, have a Scottish accent, have only ever visited England and will very likely remain in Scotland their whole childhood.

British! That's the nation! But he has a background of the countries of both England and Wales so he can cite both culturally

Good points.

The interesting thing us... since 1983 being born in Britain doesn't grant you British citizenship.

Being born in India grants India ln citizenship though

So the opposite if perception

I've observed these discussions for such a long time that sometimes I forget that there are people who genuinely think those kinds of questions and observations are their own thoughts. It's actually hard to remember that people ask these kinds of questions honestly, and are therefore taken aback when I respond as I do. Jaded would be a more accurate descriptor than hysterical.

He is 100% Welsh, he could also call himself British if he chose. The default for Brits with parents born in the non English bits of the UK is always the other nation.

I think if a British person was born and raised in India, and went to Indian schools and spoke Hindi and participated in Indian culture, then returned to the UK, it would be perfectly fine for them to say they felt more Indian than British.

Just ask who he supports in the rugby.

That depends on what you mean by being Welsh by nationality. Do you mean a citizen of Wales? Wales is not a state so you can't be a citizen of it.

By nationally, I was thinking more of living and being a part of Wales as a country, not necessarily a state. It's the wrong word, but I'm not sure what the right one is? I think what I meant was more culture/social. So, you might not be of the ethnic Welsh minority, but if you were born and raised there, and went to school there then it would make sense somewhat to call yourself Welsh, if not ethnically than socially? So if I moved to China and had children in China who were immersed in Chinese language and culture, at some point it would make sense to say they are Chinese to some extent, but not ethnically, so hey are ethnically English but socially Chinese. I don't know how you'd say that though, an English Chinese? Or does that sound like an ethnically Chinese person who lives in England? Or would that be British Chinese.

I find the differences confusing myself at times

Sorry my last post should've said English with Welsh heritage.

I've lost track of the posts, did your partner spend much time in Wales over the course of his childhood? Is he close to his Welsh family/familiar with the geography/culture etc?

I am in the same situation as your husband and consider myself English

I sound English, live in England and don't feel any connection to wales at all.

I don't mean to offend or upset anyone btw, I feel like race/ethnicity/nationality/culture are difficult at times to talk about in ways that protects people's ethnic groups but also allows for integration and immigration in ways that aren't seen as racist? I'm not sure. I'm also not always sure where counts as ethnic groups and which don't etc

There simply is no technically correct answer, but I don’t think many would quibble with him calling himself Welsh.

I thought your nationality was technically that of the place you are born. So I'd say English with Welsh heritage. Or British, but does that count in the same way?

Happy to be wrong

Hmm. As many, many others have already said, the only nationality he has that is legally defined is British. If he doesn’t like that he needs to move to Wales and vote for independence.

As to whether he can call himself Welsh, that’s entirely up to him, but he also needs to accept that others with different backgrounds also have the right to do the same- eg the opposite person to him- someone born in Wales to English parents - can also say they are Welsh, especially if they still live in Wales.

My son was born in England to one Scottish and one English parent. We live in London. I tell him he is half Scottish half English and he likes that for its curiosity value. I’d prefer him to describe himself as British rather than English in order to acknowledge his heritage but I don’t really care because there is no UK nationality other than British that confers any rights or benefits on a person. That is all determined by which of the constituent countries you live in. People don’t get that though-I lost count of the number of people who thought I could vote in the Scottish independence referendum even though I hadn’t lived there in decades, and they were mostly surprised that I didn’t feel aggrieved not to be able to. I asked them if they thought I should also be allowed to vote for Manchester mayor or a town Council in Norwich?