To be confused about my partner's nationality

[ForestryForever]

Good evening,
My partner's parents were both born in Wales. They both lived and grew up in Wales. As adults they both left Wales and lived in England, where they remained.
Whilst married and living in England, they had a baby - my partner. My partner was born, raised in and grew up in England, and still lives in England.
What nationality is my partner?

I nearly didn't post this because I always think it's a mistake to argue on MN this late, but this is what I have summarised

If I was the child of 2 Welsh parents I would consider myself Welsh

If I was in a relationship with someone who :

Wouldn't accept my nationality
Described me completely incorrectly to friends and refused to stand corrected
Didn't understand that I literally can't be half Welsh
Wouldn't let it go
Took to the internet to "prove me wrong"

I mean, it wouldn't last much longer. Why can't you let this go?

No swearing here dear. Just bemusement at your rather random rage.

I think in this context he can be either but not half English half Welsh as you basically told your friend one of his parents is English? And they are not.

No fair enough....it's just his reaction to being called half Welsh/English was a little extreme.

If someone mistakenly called me Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish, I'd laugh and correct them- it wouldn't make me cross.

It's not a hill I'd die on, but I guess it's important to some people

This completely.

in my politics degree we spent a semester maybe even longer on topics of state vs country, nationality vs citizenship vs identity vs culture vs ancestry. There’s no definitive answer to these questions. Even in law different countries view it differently. In most countries you get citizenship if you are born there but in some countries ancestry is more important than where you were born. There are different views on what is most important and how far back into your ancestry you could or should go. Identity is another layer still. Good luck with this one OP!

Do you really NEED to know though? England and wales are so close and have barely any cultural differences. Why is it even an issue?! Most people I know say they’re British as basically everyone has a mix of a couple of more British countries, no?

Ah yes, time to roll out the patronizing dear and accusations of anger - the worst of all possible emotions in a female. I could write your script, it's so tedious.

Ethnicity is a cultural construct that most of us buy into. The government, for example, asks the UK population to self-identify its ethnicity in the census.

The five broadest categories are White, Asian, Black, Mixed or Multiple, and Other.

There are then more detailed sub-divisions, for example:

Asian, Asian British or Asian Welsh: Bangladeshi
Asian, Asian British or Asian Welsh: Chinese

Black, Black British, Black Welsh, Caribbean or African: African
Black, Black British, Black Welsh, Caribbean or African: Caribbean

White: English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish or British

What is Welsh ethnicity? All of the Welsh categories above?

You can really stop wasting the OP's thread addressing me now. I'll give you one bit of assistance, though, in case you have an attack of genuine curiosity at any point - learn population genetics. I won't be engaging with you further.

English, he was born in England 🤷‍♀️

Yeah but if the government asked him on a form the option would be British.

It's really important to him that he's Welsh. That's why it's become an issue. He obviously doesn't want to simply see himself as British. They're not talking about the same thing at all, though, which is the source of the row. Just as people on this thread are using terms they don't understand all the time, OP and her husband have done the same.

OK, happy to leave you in your ranting.

That's how most people would understand what she said, yes, but that wasn't what she intended to communicate.

Welsh. He has Welsh parentage.

If an Indian couple had a dc in England and raised them in England then they would be English with Indian parentage/heritage and could refer to themselves as Indian due to background. So it’s the same but swap Indian for Welsh.

I sincerely hope you're joking?!

Welsh.

My sisters kids are born and bred in Beijing. They're not Chinese though

(Sister and her husband are British, living out there)

OP your DH is wrong.

Your DH isn’t even half Welsh, he’s 100% English nationality.

However, he is of Welsh ethnic origin. Some people would call this Welsh-English, nobody should call him Welsh as he was not born in Wales, unless they are referring to his heritage and not his nationality.

For example, someone born in Birmingham is not a Yorkshireman even if his parents were both born in Yorkshire.

I have a friend of English race that was born in Germany, has British nationality and is of Indian ethnic origin. No wonder most people interchange definitions wrongly.

https://www.devon.gov.uk/equality/guidance/diversity/guide/race#:~:text=%27Race%27%20is%20a%20social%20construct,language%2C%20or%20distinctive%20shared%20culture.

“Race’ is a social construct and not a biological fact as explained in this BBC Video. Race covers: nationality (for example, British), national origin (for example, English), skin colour and ethnicity or ‘ethnic origin’. Ethnic origin is defined by a shared history/ancestry, language, or distinctive shared culture. Nationality is determined by what is on your passport (British) and national origin is the country where you were born (English).”

https://dbpedia.org/page/Welsh_people

“The Welsh (Welsh: Cymry) are an ethnic group native to Wales. "Welsh people" applies to those who were born in Wales (Welsh: Cymru) and to those who have Welsh ancestry, perceiving themselves or being perceived as sharing a cultural heritage and shared ancestral origins. “

http://projectbritain.com/nationality.htm#:~:text=People%20born%20in%20Wales%20are,are%20Welsh%20rather%20than%20British.&text=Are%20the%20people%20in%20Britain%20ethnically%20diverse%3F

“People born in Wales are called Welsh or British and can say that they live in Wales, Britain and/or the UK. Most people in Wales will say they are Welsh rather than British.”

Similarly people born in England are called English or British.

So he is English (nationality) and Welsh (ethnicity).

But people often want ot be what they are not and in this crazy world we live in people can apparently identify as anything can’t they, even the wrong sex or species, so just humour him.

I am genuinely curious as to why you can't give a straight answer to a straight question. Are you ashamed of your views? Are you concerned that if you wrote freely and clearly what you mean by "Welsh ethnicity" you might have your posts deleted?

You can be ethncially White and Welsh. You can be ethnically Chinese and Welsh. You can be ethnically African and Welsh. So how can you be ethnically Welsh?

Well he's definitely not "half" Welsh because both his parents are Welsh but he grew up in England.

1. For passport purposes he is British.
2. Based on parentage (and I assume grand parentage) he is (entirely) Welsh.
3. Based on place of birth and subsequent place of residence he is entitled to claim he is English.

I think 1 and 2 trump 3. Legally 1 is often what determines rights as a citizen of a country. 2 impacts on your genetics and very likely the culture you are brought up in. 3 is quite literally an "accident of birth". followed perhaps by your parents choosing to continue to live there.

Because of these different options/influences, all of which are true and factually based, he has a choice about his nationality. That is why it matters what he believes/identifies as. So I would consider him entirely Welsh.

Bit tricky saying nationality depends only on parents nationality, unaffected by where you lived or were born. That would mean nobody was Welsh unless all their ancestors had been Welsh, because their ancestors were Welsh, and so were their ancestors.

Britain is not ethnically pure so that doesn't work.

I would say that OP's partner is Welsh, based on the old adage "being born in a stable does not make a man a horse" (ascribed to Daniel O'Connell about the Duke of Wellington). He may even be in the unfortunate position that in England he is Welsh, but in Wales he is English! An interesting question is what his descendants are/will be if they are born in England or in Wales!

The people of Countries/Nations that form unions with each other, totally merge or split themselves apart will always have problems with this nationality question. Post WW2 - countries that split include China, Korea, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, India then Pakistan. Countries that merged include East & West Germany, North & South Vietnam, UAE, Tanzania.

Language doesn't matter. South Africa has 11 official languages and Bolivia has 37.

Wales is a country but not a sovereign state, so is not recognised by the UN or the Olympics, but is recognised by FIFA.

And I don't get all this 'whatever he identifies with'. Surely there's a factual, objective answer, not a subjective one.

No there isn't because beyond the legal objective definition of being British the rest is a matter of 'identifying', cultural heritage , how you feel, etc.