Do you agree with school or the parents?

[Watermelon44]

Our high school has made the news because of a uniform dispute between (some) parents and the head who is recently in post.

The gist of it is that the school brought in a new rule in April that they were no longer allowing black leather trainers (eg superstars or nike air force) and instead the kids should be in smart plain black leather office shoes.

This appears to have caused ww3 with some parents, who despite having many months notice, still sent their kids in the banned trainers (100+ children apparently). The school has stuck to its guns and has isolated and then suspended those in the wrong shoes if they refused to comply.

The school has also banned girls from wearing socks, and have enforced a thick tights ruling, although socks are allowed in the summer term and if allowed by the head in any warm spells (eg the past 3 days).

Personally I think the tights ruling is worse and I have mixed views on the trainers rule.

I am interested in the real reasons behind these strict uniform rules as I feel if the real reasons were shared with parents they may be more on board with them, rather than the usual rubbish about dressing professionally eg like in an office, when my dp works in a head office in London and goes in jeans and trainers!

As this seems to have whipped up a storm locally, I am interested in other people’s views on this topic as some of the parents round here seem to have gone totally bats*it over it!!

I remember reading somewhere in a school policy that the child would never be held accountable for the parents actions / parents bad behaviour. It was in a parents policy that came about when we had someone kick off a few years ago. Surely punishing the child for the uniform they have been given to wear goes against this.

Schools have a right to set a reasonable uniform policy, and this one doesn’t sound unreasonable, so there seems to be no good reason to ignore it and then complain at being pulled up for the breach.

Both the state and (very expensive) private schools round here have uniforms and I’ve never once heard any parent complaining.

*As a parent I would tell the school to get to feck. They are legally obliged to educate my child and if they don’t like the particular black trainers I sent my kid to school in that’s tough shit. The thing with the tights is even worse. Deranged.

I would send them how I see fit and if they penalised my child in any way I would have them up in judicial review immediately and I would take all practical steps to make them wish very quickly that they had never messed with my kids’ education over trivialities.*

The irony, You don't think dealing with high maintenance parents and a judicial review would take time and monetary resources away from actually teaching your kids?

We follow the school uniform rules because I want the school to focus on educating my children. I also want my kids to be respectful and comply with the school rules, as I have to at work every day.

Both the state and (very expensive) private schools round here have uniforms and I’ve never once heard any parent complaining.

My kids are at a private school and I've never once heard parents complain either. They also get very good results which may or may not be related to the fact they come in wearing the correct uniform, sit down in class and work hard. I went to a grammar school and we did the same.

It makes the job of the teachers a lot easier as they're not having to debate with parents and pupils as to whether it's technically a school shoe or trainer. There's an ethos of parents and teachers working together to help the kids get the grades they deserve, rather than a confrontational and attritional relationship.

I think it is the opposite, offices are getting less formal and schools are getting more formal.

Although Christ's Hospital uniform is awesome and the students voted to keep it.

Absolutely - good point.

This might not be the school the OP is alluding to, but I read about one school where an 11 year old had been in isolation all day because of their shoes. Whatever you think about uniform rules, that’s morally wrong.

An 11yr old who isn’t dangerous or disruptive absolutely not be missing a whole day’s education because they’re being made an example of.

Shoes no issue with if parents had plenty of warning then they should have followed rules

Don't really agree with the tights but fine with knee length skirt rule (can't understand why anyone needs to measure that) Also not an issue if girls can wear trousers.

Can't get over the tight issue. What is the reasoning behind it? If it is a skirt length issue then that needs to be addressed separately. Agree that parental rights are being eroded.

I agree.what I meant was eventually I think it will change

This

My daughter has always worn little cycling shorts u see her dresses / school skirts. Then it doesn't matter how short the skirts are or aren't.

In a lot of areas parents don't "choose" the school, they get the one that they are given or there is one.

Does this mean that if you got a school that you didn't want, uniform doesn't apply?

If skirt lengths are behind the tights issue, the school needs to address that. If I was told to wear thick tights, even in cooler weather I’d feel hot and uncomfortable all day, are girls allowed to wear trousers?

The shoes issue I never understand either. Kids have to walk to school, lots of walking around school, my feet would be crippled in brogues or office shoes.

I’m so glad my high school was relaxed with its uniform and actually taught us, rather than wasting time on deciding an all black shoe with a black tick is worthy of exclusion.

@Oblomov23 What parental rights? When I was at school parents had no clubs at all! No complaints procedure. One meeting with teachers a year. No open days to ask questions. No parents on the governing board.

I can assure you that parents just bought the uniform at exorbitant cost. My uniform in the 60s cost £60. This was 3 times my dad’s weekly pay. The raincoats were a special order from the school outfitter. As was everything else! You were allowed to home knit a jumper to the school pattern.

Parents these days are relatively influential in the running of schools. Schools have obligations to consult and have responsibility to work with their community. However schools get mixed messages from parents. Look at how some love the Michaela School but others would hate it. The head there won’t tolerate challenge. Other heads are more pragmatic and their staff don’t like them as they believe discipline is linked to uniform. As the Forces do. So finding a sensible middle way is what’s needed. Parents are key in this snd maybe all should be invited to vote on uniform options? The majority will always follow rules. It’s the minority schools need to get on board.

Clubs! No voice at all.,

I think it's about discipline and control, but in the worst possible way. The head is bloody ridiculous.

Both rules are stupid and controlling. Just let kids be comfortable and let parents dress their kids in what they feel is appropriate.

Many offices are also more casual now. People wear trainers as the norm, because they are comfortable.

School staff are concentrating on the wrong things.

I thought that 50 odd years ago. How wrong was I!

I'd agree with that.
What punishment does it leave then for kids who are actually disruptive or dangerous?

The punishment must be in line with the behaviour policy and there’s a big difference for a first minor offence and a catalogue of offences. The Government actually gives good guidance on how governors and heads should establish a uniform policy. Consultation via engagement with pupils and parents is promoted. Not sure this happens very much. Schools must consider comfort of the uniform, price, availability and safety on a dark evening! Schools are advised to take out insurance in case of a successful legal challenge.

Therefore schools are given loads of guidance. Maybe a few should be challenged?

In a private school, good grades have much more to do with small classes, good teacher retention because of the better working conditions, and the fact that they can afford good facilities, individual textbooks etc.

St Paul's Girls' School has consistently been at or very near the top of the league tables for grades for years. They don't have uniform.

The other reason private schools get the grades are Selection at the entry stage and money, every kid I've known at private school has ended up with a tutor for something.

You are unlikely to hear private school parents complain.
They have made a decision to spend money to send their kids to a school they believe is better than the local state school.
Nobody really wants to admit they have spent money foolishly, or they don't like what they have bought into, esp when they can't really tell little Teddy, sorry don't like your schools uniform policy we are going to move you from your friends.

The difference with private school uniforms is threefold in my experience:

1. they have everything prescribed so there is no interpretation issue
2. They aren’t stupid about shoes - black shoes that aren’t trainers is all that is given where I work
3. no ridiculous punishment - come in wearing fancy trainers? You’re put in plimsoles and carry on. No isolation/detention etc.

no one is punished or excluded from education because of uniform. I work at a top London prep and the kids look like they’ve been dragged through a hedge sometimes and no one cares. They’re boys having fun and accessing education.

I'd agree with this.

At my children's school the uniform is very prescribed, but hair and shoes are extremely sensible. Kids come in very disheveled looking and no one cares - behaviour is much more of a focus.

The private schools we've been to also have well-supported second-hand uniform shops. It's often a badge of honour not to buy new and keeps the cost of uniform down (granted any saving is dwarfed by the school fees). Proceeds from uniform are shared between the parent donating the item and school.

There's plenty of complaining (particularly by the scarily competitive parents) but not usually about uniform. I haven't seen pupils wearing trainers, pretty much everyone goes to Clark's or wherever and buys their school shoes there.