Do you agree with school or the parents?

[Watermelon44]

Our high school has made the news because of a uniform dispute between (some) parents and the head who is recently in post.

The gist of it is that the school brought in a new rule in April that they were no longer allowing black leather trainers (eg superstars or nike air force) and instead the kids should be in smart plain black leather office shoes.

This appears to have caused ww3 with some parents, who despite having many months notice, still sent their kids in the banned trainers (100+ children apparently). The school has stuck to its guns and has isolated and then suspended those in the wrong shoes if they refused to comply.

The school has also banned girls from wearing socks, and have enforced a thick tights ruling, although socks are allowed in the summer term and if allowed by the head in any warm spells (eg the past 3 days).

Personally I think the tights ruling is worse and I have mixed views on the trainers rule.

I am interested in the real reasons behind these strict uniform rules as I feel if the real reasons were shared with parents they may be more on board with them, rather than the usual rubbish about dressing professionally eg like in an office, when my dp works in a head office in London and goes in jeans and trainers!

As this seems to have whipped up a storm locally, I am interested in other people’s views on this topic as some of the parents round here seem to have gone totally bats*it over it!!

I don’t see a problem with it. They can wear socks in hot weather. Otherwise it’s tights. Probably because so many of them wear tiny tight skirts. It’s all very well ‘teaching boys not to leer’ as a pp said. But I’m not sure my 11 year old year 7 son should be faced with an arse cheek if he happens to be on the step below a girl in a tiny skirt on their way up the stairs. I work in schools. If you’re on the stairs facing forward and walking up then you literally can’t help what you can see- no leering is happening, the arse cheeks are right there. And it’s not appropriate. I don’t want to see people’s arses. Presumably the girls can wear trousers if they don’t like tights?

@Shepandawing Whilst on the whole, I disagree with parents who complain about school rules, I don't think your argument is valid until actual school choice is a thing. By an large, there is no choice where you send your kid to school. It is a myth, unless you have a lot of money.

@Ivebeentogeorgia I agree. I really disagree with a previous poster who said there's no difference between an ass cheek and a leg or shoulder. Of course there is. If you grabbed someone's ass cheek Vs someone's shoulder the consequences and reactions are very different.
Do the mums defending this also realise this short short skirt business is also their daughters being sexualised by the industry and media?

@neverenoughwine when does DP think this was? I’m pretty ancient. My school has photos from 1882 with DC in uniform! I’m not that ancient of course and I’ve no doubt village schools didn’t have a uniform but after the 1944 education act, most secondaries did. Primaries were much later.

Many parents actually wanted uniforms and didn’t argue! Parents back then didn’t think £100 trainers were ok whilst moaning about the cost of sports equipment and sportswear. We had grey wool culottes for hockey. If anyone had a right to complain, we did. The local performing arts school made its girls wear white gloves - in the 80s. Uniforms evolve.

I don’t think we should be teaching young people to be sheep. And I don’t think “because I said so” is a good enough reason for schools to justify rules. I think it’s okay for young people to question rules if they believe those rules are discriminatory- those lads who wore skirts to school yo protest the fact they couldn’t wear shorts in hot weather is a good example. I don’t agree in defiance for defiance sake but I do believe young people have a right to know & question the reasons behind a rule. And it’s all very well to say “don’t send them there” but there isn’t actually that degree of choice in the system, not for most families.

Following the rules of an institution you are a member of (or Country or workplace) is not 'being a sheep' and its that attitude that makes it harder for teachers and other students when they are faced with children who think they are above the rules.
There is nothing 'discriminatory' about this policy that's a massive over reaction. Yes ask for the reason behind the rules by all means but try and avoid thinking you or your children are above them.

I actually think following the rules without thinking critically is being a sheep. Plenty of examples throughout history of things that have been within the rules but morally wrong, or against the rules but morally right.

It’s not about being above the rules - it’s about developing your own moral sense. I’m very clear with my kids that sometimes a rule might inconvenience them but be for the greater good & I’d absolutely expect them to respect that rule and/ or accept the consequences if they didn’t.

and some of these rules are discriminatory- on gender, against kids with sensory issues, in the case of not being able to remove layers against kids whose body temperatures are disregulated by medication etc etc.

1980s Derbyshire!!

I know..

It's the micro managing that gets me insisting that blazers must be worn regardless of the weather or individual children's comfort.
Even work places with uniform rarely insist on that level of micro management.

Maybe the alternative to the tights could be skirts more than 10cm above the knee need tights or shorts under them.

Derbyshire is very different to where I live then. Uniforms well entrenched after 1945. So maybe Derbyshire should trial it? And deal with the fallout when the Nike Air Jordan’s or Adidas Sambas are nicked?

@0021andabit " I don’t agree in defiance for defiance sake but I do believe young people have a right to know & question the reasons behind a rule"
Its interesting you don't agree with defiance when it's under your understanding of it. The rules do get explained to the kids. Many many times. Many times in life we have to follow rules we may not understand. That doesn't mean we shouldn't follow them and it certainly doesn't mean we're entitled to an explanation.

The school have a bigger issue to deal with than tights Vs socks then...

That's looks like a much more practical choice. Affordable and comfortable.

I think what is wrong is assuming that people dress like that in offices.
In most offices I have worked in, floaty dresses and sandals would be the norm in hot weather.
Polo or button up shirt open at the neck for men and light colours to reflect the heat.

Not only that, school isn't the equivalent of an office. Some lessons... History, English etc maybe but what about science, tech, art, food tech... nobody goes to work in a lab, or workshop or art studio or kitchen dressed in a suit and tie but this is what we are making kids do for half the week.

Don't most HCPs wear scrubs type gear these days?

@Scatterbrainbox our nursing teams are back in normal uniform work just scrubs for icu.

It’s so outdated isn’t it.

I cringe when I see poor tweens and teens dressed up like little businessmen/women in their shirts, ties, blazers and stay-pressed slacks. Not many jobs these days ‘in the real world’ require workers to dress in such an outdated fashion.

Does normal uniform have to be a dress? I haven't seen that for years! Or is a dress optional rather than trousers/top.
I think that patient care needs to the priority and whatever clothes enable that best should be allowed.

But that’s the issue. We ARE entitled to an explanation. Rules by their very nature are meant to keep us safe and for society to function smoothly. The problems arise when ‘rule-creep’ means that ever more rules are added on top of existing rules (as in this case re school uniforms) and suddenly you have a situation where people feel that certain ‘new’ rules are unfair and unjustified.

Humans will happily follow rules in general that make sense and everyone agrees to. For example we all agree that theft is wrong, that driving over the speed limit is unsafe etc. These are rules that the vast majority of people agree to and are happy to follow.

I think that in school, a lot of young people feel that the rules are not made by them, that they have no say in anything and that petty rules about shoes and blazers etc are just a step too far. It doesn’t mean that all kids won’t follow most school rules. Most do. But as in all areas of life (thinking actually about some of the lockdown rules here!) some rules feel unjustified and therein lies the problem.

@Scatterbrainbox option of dress or trousers and tunic. I noticed this summer we have many more in dresses. Most of the sisters wear them and half the matrons. It was getting rarer to see dresses but they appear popular this summer with our teams (acute and community hospitals).

So they don't have to wear it if they feel it's not comfortable for the weather etc ..so that's different.

@Foxesandsquirrels I’m kind of intrigued by this: as an adult, if there was a rule you didn’t understand/ thought was morally wrong, would you follow it without questioning it? I absolutely think you’re entitled to an explanation of why a rule is in place. The thing I always say to myself/ my kids is, “okay, maybe you doing x, y, z wouldn’t cause any harm but what would happen if everyone did it?” The reason for the rule usually becomes clear when you think of it that way…

But for me, questioning where the rules we live by come from, why they exist, how they keep us & others safe, is at the core of morality/ citizenship. Anyway, I’ve maybe derailed into a philosophical debate!

My own opinion is that uniforms are in general a good thing, but petty, controlling uniform rules are not - keep it safe, practical, simple, comfortable, affordable & if you need to impose any more rules than that explain to the young people who have to actually wear the uniform why those additional rules exist.

@Scatterbrainbox but most schools the girls can choose trousers.

This. And the pp talking about uniform brought in after 1944 education act (they’d stopped making so many soldiers’ uniforms by then I suppose) and that uniforms are evolving.
i don’t think anyone can link to quality research study that uniform affects academic performance, only compliance. Sure it reflects a disorganised child or one who doesn’t care about school but it doesn’t make them better or worse at something. So uniform is a pointless waste of time.

Lots don't, including the one the OP is talking about by the sound of it.
My daughter's school have only allowed it from the first time this year.