Do you agree with school or the parents?

[Watermelon44]

Our high school has made the news because of a uniform dispute between (some) parents and the head who is recently in post.

The gist of it is that the school brought in a new rule in April that they were no longer allowing black leather trainers (eg superstars or nike air force) and instead the kids should be in smart plain black leather office shoes.

This appears to have caused ww3 with some parents, who despite having many months notice, still sent their kids in the banned trainers (100+ children apparently). The school has stuck to its guns and has isolated and then suspended those in the wrong shoes if they refused to comply.

The school has also banned girls from wearing socks, and have enforced a thick tights ruling, although socks are allowed in the summer term and if allowed by the head in any warm spells (eg the past 3 days).

Personally I think the tights ruling is worse and I have mixed views on the trainers rule.

I am interested in the real reasons behind these strict uniform rules as I feel if the real reasons were shared with parents they may be more on board with them, rather than the usual rubbish about dressing professionally eg like in an office, when my dp works in a head office in London and goes in jeans and trainers!

As this seems to have whipped up a storm locally, I am interested in other people’s views on this topic as some of the parents round here seem to have gone totally bats*it over it!!

Do they get explained? How, exactly? Because I really struggle to think of how any school could give a convincing explanation to children of why it's allegedly important to wear uniforms with logos, let alone blazers in a heatwave. No-one on this thread has come up with one, after all.

Milgram experiment. You’d be great at it.

I hate that they don't give a shit about their pupils feet

Trainers especially Air Force ones that they love to wear are great for their feet especially for the DC that walk to school and back

@SpanieAttack lool

I've never really understood the need for uniforms, many countries do fine without them.

However, given that they are traditional in the UK, the current obsession of having extremely detailed uniform policies and a zero tolerance approach that extends to effectively kettling a large proportion of the pupils in sports halls instead of educating them is still absolutely bonkers in my opinion. It seems that many heads see this as a shortcut to better behaviour without being able to provide a single shred of actual evidence to support it.

They don't make proper school shoes like they used to and I buy my DS shoes from Clinkards. I've had an issue with teachers moaning about his school shoes but that's how they make them similar to a trainer style, George sell similar style too.

@0021andabit I agree. There's something weird and very impersonal why should you have to ask to remove your jumper. For what? Its ridiculous.

Not RTFT but what are office shoes? Googling just brings up the UK shoe sellers.

Schools could have everyone wear trousers and avoid tights/socks/short skirt issues.
Ours allows all black trainers, branded as long as the logo is black. It's much better for growing feet than those black ballet shoes girls used to slip about in.

Shoes I 1000% agree with. I will throw them at said parents.
School is no fashion show my dear.

Tights socks is just petty. Poor kids. Some run hot some run cold. Some may want to wear socks all year! That is part of thebuniform policy so they should wear it when they feel like it.

The issue is that in most cases the school has been prescriptive, given notice and the sad faced and incredulous just haven’t complied.

I hated enforcing uniform as a SLT, utterly hated it but then we got a Head who didn’t believe in it, or in fact any rules and the school is now literally in chaos and I wouldn’t send the wild hedgehog and her family who live in my garden there never mind a child. It does start with uniform, I’ve worked it, seen it and dealt with the horrible circus of rules that don’t apply to various children because, because, because, sad face and a tantrum….

The fact is some parents and of course the children kick against all rules, despite notice, reasonableness or discussion. When the uniform rules were not enforced it led to a slide in everything else. Yep, I never used to believe those who said these things either, but I watched a school go into terminal decline because the ‘little things’ were not adhered to.

We relaxed the nose piercing rule to the pupil having to be 16 and it be a small stud with parental form filled out. Fairly simple rule? Within days we had 15 year olds turning up with enormous spangly piercings that ‘couldn’t be removed for ( various) reasons’. Every concession given was an opportunity for a child to push the bar, parents to back them and the ridiculous Head just caved in.

Whether or not you like your local or allocated school, every parent in England has a choice about where their child goes, each parent agrees to support the rules of the school which tend to be freely distributed/ posted on websites/ handouts etc… don’t like the rules take your child elsewhere, it inconveniences you … well what’s more important? Adhering to rules you agreed to when your child was admitted or driving miles/ being consistently late for work so your child can attend a school which has policies you agree with in their entirety… you do have a choice. From what I am reading many state schools have similar rules re uniform anyway ( I trained and taught in the UK but have lived and worked abroad for a number of years).

The little things matter in a school, yep even the uniform rules. Every September this happens. Now, the cost for the uniform is imho a different story . Whether a parent/ child agrees with the uniform code should be decided prior to enrolment.

The tights thing is ridiculous and could lead to thrush. I'm guessing the HT is a man.

I think the shoes thing, it should be brought in gradually so year 7 - new shoes, but kids higher up the school I can understand parents being upset, I was the same shoe size at 16 as I was at 11 and a decent pair of trainers would last more than a year.

Trainers are also support the foot.

I'd be asking why the change.

Having been reading this thread, I'm starting to think the solution is that everyone in the school should wear the uniform. Including all staff members. They could show the pupils exactly the standard it should be and if they are too hot or too cold the ways in which they manage to deal with that situation without taking off their blazer or jumper or popping a coat on etc. All pupils could learn by example!
If every single member of staff isn't willing to adhere to the exact same rules, no one should expect it of the pupils either...

ooh that’s an interesting concept.

Do you think that many schools hold children to higher standards than the adults 🤔

Well if staff are allowed to take off jumpers or jackets when they are hot, without asking permission then yes they definitely are.
If staff can wear the shoes they find most comfortable without even thinking about it then yes they are.
If in the case of the OP, if female staff members aren't expected to wear potentially thrush causing tights for most of the year then yes they are.
They are expecting pupils to wear clothes that may not be suitable for the conditions or the tasks they need to do, without having to do that themselves. They should be providing examples of the behaviour and dress code expected.

The fingertip length skirt rule and no visible shoulders is a very common rule in US High schools.

Depending on the region and culture and if they actually enforce it. Some may have those rules but doesn’t mean they enforce them, especially not to the point of sending kids home or not allowing them into school.

Op you are easily identifiable, I think a good compromise would be either tights or trousers.

I'm not sure who asked about grammar schools but IME they are more relaxed than comprehensives.

DD1 goes to a mixed grammar school where they can wear either a jumper or a blazer or neither. Children can wear trousers or skirts - in the hot weather some of the boys wear skirts as they're not allowed to wear shorts, no-one bats an eyelid.
They're not allowed trainers but otherwise not too proscriptive - DD1 has had DM shoes since she started as they're indestructible and she walks over 10,000 steps a day on her commute.

DD2 has just started at the local girls school. They have to wear blazers whatever the weather. This week they were told they could take them off but still had to carry them in and out of school with them, and from lesson to lesson which just seems a bit pointless. Oh and the blazers are made of plastic so are incredibly sweaty.

@SpanielsMatter You are wrong in the assumption that parents get a choice of schools. In rural areas you certainly do not. Unless you can drive a long way and find another with spaces. Therefore Dc get stuck with the regime in a school at the time.

I think grammars are more relaxed because parents are far more likely to buy into the ethos. The schools expect parents to support their approach to uniform and, by and large, they do. Most now keep the uniform fairly simple but still want to have DC feeling like they belong to the school. Therefore they are clear with expectations and most parents don’t complain.

The big issue is over fussy uniform rules and, at the same time, allowing unsuitable clothes and shoes in lieu of uniform. Ties are a thing of the past. Cotton shirts are not. Wearing a white shirt with the required trousers is surely not a big deal? Shoes? Growing Dc should wear decent shoes. They don’t need work shoes but casual
shoes or sports shoes should not be accepted. Socks or tights? Do schools really have time to worry about this?

Yukky polyester blazers. Bin them. Awful. Pullovers with a logo are better. Then coat of choice.

@TizerorFizz You do have a choice, it’s just the choice is impractical/ inconvenient or expensive like driving a long way, going private or moving. Children are not forced into any school, hence why there is a selection process ( ok with not always the outcome parents desire because everyone wants the particular school with the particular OFSTED rating). The 1980’s ethos of school ‘choice’ is totally embedded now, indeed, my cousin had to make some tough choices for her children but there was choice, yup it was expensive, no I didn’t understand her concerns having known and taught in the local school, but she moved purely to get her kids into, in her eyes, ‘a better school’.

Actually @SpanielsMatter its expressing a preference. It’s never been a choice. Rural areas do not get much choice, if any, that makes logistical sense. Far better to have a decent local school you can support and does a good job. It’s not acceptable to make parents drive miles when we are all considering our carbon footprint to avoid stupid school uniform policies. Do you really think parents can go private at the drop of a hat? The best option most parents want is a local school they are happy with. Clearly slt matters. Some are useless as you say. Some are so draconian they should have been in the army. Great if you want this sort of school. I would never have wanted that for my girls. So your solutions do not work for most in rural areas unless parents are prepared for great expense and have time to spare.

@phoenixrosehere that's literally the same as the UK though??

Strict school uniforms like this are not inclusive. If someone finds formal shoes painful or a skirt and tights uncomfortable they have to make a special request to wear something different and that is not inclusive at all. Let kids focus on their education and not stress, or rebel, against strict school uniforms. In other countries kids are going to school in shorts and crop tops, no problems.

I don't mind uniform actually but when they get super fussy insisting on a particular colour of socks for the boys then it seems pretty and as if they're out to catch them breaking the rules.
Both my boys attended a star academy school, great results and all but the teachers go out of their way to catch the kids out.
Who cares if they've got grey socks on instead of black?
They had one teacher who did random sock checks and the kids had to buy a pair of black socks from the office!
Now that is ridiculous.
Plus the blazer always on rule even in this heat and having to ask permission to open a window.
It breeds resentment in the boys and even the good kids start to misbehave as they lose respect for their teachers.

What a ridiculous post? You’ve forgotten leaving your job to do home schooling as one of your options! Very few people, even on decent salaries, can afford private school. Just because your cousin was able to move doesn’t mean everyone can. The chances of getting into a school where you have to drive a long way are probably very slight. And in areas where there is a choice, it’s probably a choice between a few schools with very similar requirements.

However in terms of home schooling there are probably more children in this position than ever before. Whether it was positive choice on behalf of the parents or not.